Head Retention

[lobo]

hi all,

i have done a search but cant find anything linking the 2 subjects.

i use pink stain for everything, from mash tun to dispensing keg, to my taps and lines.

i AG and i have noticed that i can never get a decent head on my beer. well, it pours beautifully, then just drops away after the first few sips.
its not my glasses, i try everything during the brewing process to help it along, carapils, wheat, protien rests on the last coupple of mashes. to no avail.

im starting to think its my sanatising process.
i can make great beer doing AG, it would just be so much better if i could get a bit of head!

any thoughts?

Lobo

 

[razz]

I haven't used pinkstain Lobo, do you need to rinse it afterwards ? What's your usual procedure for cleaning/sanitising ?

 

[Bribie G]

Erm... please enlighten us as to what this mysterious 'pink stain' is? Google search reveals nothing. :huh:

 

[lobo]

pink stain. from the local hbs. brewcraft.

my usual way is to pink stain fermenters after use, ie, fill up with water and pink stain. leave for a few days. rinse. next time i use them, pink stain again. rinse, cold water.
kegs, rinse and fill with hot pink stain, run some throu lines and tap, then rinse and run with more hot water.

Lobo

 

[WildaYeast]

I actually have head problems as well (don't we all).

I've been less diligent than you on exploring remedies -- "carapils, wheat, protien rests on the last coupple of mashes" -- although I have played a bit with the grain bill.

However, I don't use pink stain. Have just been using home-brand (Coles) napi-san (unscented). Really very minimal use, a bit of a soak, but not days worth. Very minimal on the kegs too. Just a quick shake and flush -- napi-san, hot water, then iodophor.

We may have totally different problems, but point is I'm not following the same routine as you for sanitising. FWIW...

 

[mickoz]

How long do you boil? How fresh are your hops? How long did your beer sit on the yeast cake?

Head production is a result of the emulsion of hop oils and malt proteins. Old hops or poorly modified malts that have not been protein rested may be attribruting factors to poor head or head retention.

Mick

 

[goatherder]

Erm... please enlighten us as to what this mysterious 'pink stain' is? Google search reveals nothing. :huh:

Pink Stain Remover == Chlorinated trisodium phosphate, available from many LHBS's.

Fantastic cleaner for bottles and beer glasses. Works well on plastic too but because it's chlorinated there is a chance the plastic will absorb the chlorine smell if left too long. Like bleach, it will pit and rust stainless so be careful around sinks and what not. There are also safety/handling risks - it's a very fine powder which can irritate the repository system, especially for asthmatics and the solution can be a bit harsh on unprotected skin, not to mention eyes if splashed. Sensible precautions make it a fairly low risk product however.

 

[Leigh]

I use PSR and never had any issues with my repository system...my respiratory system is another matter

PS, no issue with head retention either...

 

[buttersd70]

I use pink stain for bottle cleaning, deep cleaning fermenters, and for glassware. Never had a head retention issue related to it.

 

[matti]

This is my findings.
If I mash single infusion with pale modified The head retention is less then if I would step mash.
When using darker grains the head retention is better in general.
The hoppier the beer is the better head retention is.

I have no trouble with any ale unless I have poor efficiencies.

My last lager which was no chill, didn't turn out great but still drinkable.
I managed to get too much trub in fermenter and didn't have a great healthy ferment.
The head stays for about 3 minutes then dissipates to a perle around the glass.


You could cheat and through in some maltodextrines. :huh:
I used to but I am trying to learn to brew properly now.
Here is a good read.
Linky

 

[matti]

Just a late add on.
If you rinse properly. Detergents with hot water and sanitiser with cool water.
It is alway worth adding a kettle of just boiled water to any of your equipment to rinse of any remaining residuals.
Then it shouldn't matter what you use to clean your equipment with.

 

[Zwickel]

Head production is a result of the emulsion of hop oils and malt proteins. Old hops or poorly modified malts that have not been protein rested may be attribruting factors to poor head or head retention.

Mick

that seems to me a very important hint.
So far Ive done many, many Pilseners, always the same way, never had any head retention issues. Recently Ive used my oldest hops, I guess more than 4 years old, just to finish it.
The hops did not smell very good anymore, but Im a tight arse, wanted to use it anyway.

The beer turned out almost without a head, anyway not like I was used to. If Im gonna rise the CO2 pressure, there will be a little head only that disappears very soon.
So I did 2 batches with that old Hallertauer Perle, smelled like unwashed socks.
Both batches turned out as Ive described it.


I never imagined before, it could have to do with the hops.

Thanks Mick, :beer:

 

[lobo]

thanks for all your input guys.

my boil is for 60-90mins, beer sits on yeast cake sometimes 2weeks plus. hops are from ross and kept in freezer. i use a hopsock to minimise hops through my plate chiller, although last couple of brews i havnt-yet to see the results. post boil is all fresh and clear through the plate chiller, then pitch yeast and there is quite a bit of what i think is cold break in the fermenter.

im still thinking im not rinsing enough of the pink stain out, im rinsing enough to get rid of taste and smell, but not enough to get rid if it all, i think the head retention would be the first thing affected?

i also get poor attenuation, but i think that may be more toward pitching/aerating rates. which i think i may have fixed. hopefully.

Lobo

 

[Stuster]

i also get poor attenuation, but i think that may be more toward pitching/aerating rates. which i think i may have fixed. hopefully.

Ah. Poor attenuation rates and poor head retention. Apparently, poor fermentations (as well as hot ones) can lead to poor head retention. Have a look at this BYO article.

Help for the headless
My suggestion for headless homebrewers is that there is one likely culprit for most headless homebrew bad fermentations.

I think that most headless homebrews result from beers with too many head killers in them. Specifically, Im thinking of some of the foam killing molecules such as higher alcohols (or fusel oils) that result from fermentation temperatures that are too high or worts that are underpitched. In most cases, I believe there are enough foam positive elements in the beer, but these are negated by fermentation byproducts that kill foam. (Note that Belgian yeasts and German wheat yeasts both reputedly produce lower levels of fusel oils than normal brewers yeast strains, especially at higher fermentation temperatures.)

In addition, when yeast are stressed during fermentation, they secrete proteases in larger amounts than unstressed yeast do. Stress may result from underpitching, underaeration or high-gravity fermentation. The resulting protease activity may decrease the amount of beer foam in the resulting beer.

Then again, it might just be that you're not rinsing enough. How many times do you rinse?

 

[MHB]

I suspect that you are looking in the wrong place, Pink isnt known as being bad on head.

To have enough left in the beer for the ammonium phosphate to be affecting your head retention the, the amount of free Chlorine would form Chloramines which are distinctly unpleasant and can be detected at very low leaves, the beer would be undrinkable.

Long protein rests (45-55C), yeast breakdown products (lipids and other fatty acids) from leaving the beer on the yeast too long or too hot, too much hot break, struggling yeast (yeast doesnt metabolise fatty acids present in the wort), immature beer and incorrect carbonation (both over and under carbonation) among other factors are all hear negative.

I would try looking at your processes rather than blaming the pink.

MHB

 

[buttersd70]

Agree with MHB on all counts. There are issues with protein resting with highly modified malts. Those that protein rest, and swear by it, (appear to) have a good understanding of the chemistry of mashing. The thing is, if a protein rest is done correctly it will improve your head, if it is done incorrectly, it will stuff your head.
What is your usual makeup in the grain bill? what are your rests? what is your efficiency when mashing this way? what is your attenuation and yeast type? fermentation schedule and temperature? How is it carbed? what volume of co2? what serving temperature?

101 things can bugger the head withot even taking the cleanser into account.

 

[randyrob]

hasn't anyone seen this article HERE

surely that will solve every homebrewers head retention problems???

Rob.

 

[buttersd70]

:lol: :lol: