Going Nitrogen

[danestead]

 

That is exactly my concern  as you will see in post 76. I am not really comfortable setting my CO2 reg to 9psi (may even 12 psi, see below), but this is what I calculate 30spi of mixed gas would supply. Let me explain, Dalton's law states that the total pressure of a mixture of gases is equal to the sum of the partial pressures of the individual gases in the mixture and the partial pressure is directly relate to the number of mols of the gas. Now if I assume the 70:30 (N2:CO2) supamix gas is based on weight (not mols) then it is 60:40 on a molar basis. This would suggest at a 30psi supagas mix will provide a C02 partial pressure of 12 psi (which is even worse) and N2 partial pressure of 18 psi. This is my concern that setting the reg at 30psi for the supagas mix will over carbonate my stout. I am more than happy for a geek to explain if I have calculated this wrongly.

Ok I can see your concern now although the chemistry is above my level.

My stout has been sitting at 30 psi for a couple of months and has been pouring fine for that period of time. Whether it is carbing up slowly, more and more every day, I don't know but it hasn't been noticeable.

Send Ross from Craftbrewer a message. He sells Nitro regs so may have a better idea. In the mean time, set your reg to 30 psi and drink it!

 

[Black n Tan]

Cheers mate, will do

 

[Bribie G]

Nitro gas mix is supplied for serving beers that are generally filtered and pasteurised and therefore completely stable.
In our case another factor to watch out for is that most of the UK style yeasts that we use for stouts and Pale Ales (to be served on nitro as Smooth or Creamflow style ales) continue working slowly in the keg, as they were "designed" to work slowly in the cask in the UK pub cellar. So our beers very often supply a lot of their own CO2.

I regularly find my nitro beers to be very lively after a week or so in the keg and need to wind my pressure way back for a while to allow them to settle down.

 

[Black n Tan]

What serving pressure do you use Bribie? The fact that find this occurs after only a week suggests to me that is due more to serving pressure rather than yeast activity. Is there anything wrong with using a lower serving pressure (say 20psi/140kPa) and shorter lines to get the creamy finish?

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Would it be safer to go 100% Nitrogen for serving then, letting the beer do its own carbonation?

 

[moonhead]

Not sure if anyone if following this thread any more. Just keen to hear where people are getting their Nitro cylinders from?

I see people recommending the BOC and Elgas 70/30 mixes, but I'm not sure how much they cost?

The Elgas ones only seem to be in F-size cylinders, which seem a bit ridiculous for home brewing. the BOC VT size ones seem a bit better, but I understand you need to rent these? How much does that cost?!!

I know MyKegsOnLegs now do the mixes, but only in Sydney, I'm in Melbourne, so that's a bit crap for me... Any ideas where to get this gas from?

 

[Bribie G]

BOC cylinders about $58 a quarter. I've handed mine in as I found I was only doing maybe 10 nitro brews a year so it was working out an expensive exercise.
Stout tap still works fine on CO2 and if necessary I can crank the pressure right up and get quite a creamy pour with stouts.

 

[Moad]

My kegs on legs. Same price as co2 and have your lhbs call the supplier as I am able to get them in Newcastle

 

[Moad]

Speedgas have the bottles to buy outright (D size) for $240 and $40 refills
MKOL bottle was $350 and $60 refills

Anyone want to buy a MKOL bottle?

 

[koshari]

Speedgas have the bottles to buy outright (D size) for $240 and $40 refills
MKOL bottle was $350 and $60 refills

Anyone want to buy a MKOL bottle?

is this for "30% co2 / 70% No" or straight co2? and are they type 30 fittings?

 

[Moad]

30/70 in the same bottle as co2, I find I am keeping pressure around 20 psi or I end up with too much head.

 

[Paul H]

30/70 in the same bottle as co2, I find I am keeping pressure around 20 psi or I end up with too much head.

Didn't know that was possible..

 

[Moad]

OT: put some beers on for a mates engagement party last night. In the beer notes I put something about wheat for head retention - "you'll need to retain all the head now you are getting married" expecting him to proof read and take it out.

He didn't... 100+ people.... haha!

 

[mr_wibble]

I recently (November) got the 70:30 mix from speedgas in Newcastle (Bennets Green, up behind the Harvey Norman, at the back of the industrial area).
I'm very happy with the service. Prices were the same as what Moad specifies.

I talked to someone on the phone at Speedgas (Sydney), and they said one of their employees sells N2 Tesuco regulators on ebay. I don't know if that's part of their business, or some kind of sideline. I guess it doesn't matter.

I ended up going with this, and a nice stout tap from aliexpress.

I'm really happy with the whole setup.

I had read (maybe in this thread) to carbonate the beer on pure CO2 before connecting it to the 70:30. On my first keg I only carbonated it a little, expecting that "30%" to carbonate it. The carbonation never seemed happen after a couple of weeks, and I put it back on the CO2 for a couple of days. After that it was good, and it has remained good ever since. I even bought a can of guiness to compare the carb/cream level - it was perfect in comparison.

 

[mckenry]

I'm missing something here I'm sure. How can you guys carbonate your beer with CO2 as usual, put it on cellarmix, 70/30 for dispensing and get 'Guiness' type pours?
The VB you drink at a pub is carbonated with CO2, then pushed out with cellarmix. Its certainly not creamy.
It must be the stout tap knocking out the CO2 to produce creamy pours. If that is so, then why bother with the cellarmix?

Not having a crack at anyone, just need to understand. I'm going to read the 5 pages again, but feel free to jump in and enlighten me.

 

[Moad]

It is so you can leave it on at higher pressure and the beer doesn't absorb that level of CO2, Nitrogen does not absorb in to the beer much at all. So very crude calculation but for example, you leave cellarmix at 30 psi, 30% of that is co2 so essentially 10psi of co2. If it was pure CO2 the beer would absorb the Co2.

If you want to crank your co2 every pour and then bleed and turn back down you do not need cellarmix.

 

[malt junkie]

I'm missing something here I'm sure. How can you guys carbonate your beer with CO2 as usual, put it on cellarmix, 70/30 for dispensing and get 'Guiness' type pours?
The VB you drink at a pub is carbonated with CO2, then pushed out with cellarmix. Its certainly not creamy.
It must be the stout tap knocking out the CO2 to produce creamy pours. If that is so, then why bother with the cellarmix?

Not having a crack at anyone, just need to understand. I'm going to read the 5 pages again, but feel free to jump in and enlighten me.

Cellar mix is as described; for pushing beer from a cellar. most cellars are below ground by a few meters, lets call it 3m to the tap. So to have your beer exiting your tap at 80- 100 kpa you'd need a minimum of an extra 30kpa, if this was done with standard co2 the beer would be over carbed, The nitrogen isn't absorbed so the over carbonation doesn't happen. Move to a stout tap and the Idea is to have the beer go through the tap at higher pressure, but not higher carbonation, therefore cellar mix is prefered.

Beaten by moad!

 

[mckenry]

It is so you can leave it on at higher pressure and the beer doesn't absorb that level of CO2, Nitrogen does not absorb in to the beer much at all. So very crude calculation but for example, you leave cellarmix at 30 psi, 30% of that is co2 so essentially 10psi of co2. If it was pure CO2 the beer would absorb the Co2.

If you want to crank your co2 every pour and then bleed and turn back down you do not need cellarmix.

Cellar mix is as described; for pushing beer from a cellar. most cellars are below ground by a few meters, lets call it 3m to the tap. So to have your beer exiting your tap at 80- 100 kpa you'd need a minimum of an extra 30kpa, if this was done with standard co2 the beer would be over carbed, The nitrogen isn't absorbed so the over carbonation doesn't happen. Move to a stout tap and the Idea is to have the beer go through the tap at higher pressure, but not higher carbonation, therefore cellar mix is prefered.

Beaten by moad!

Thanks guys, but I understand totally the need for cellarmix and avoiding overcarbonation. I run a bar on weekends.
What I'm trying to understand is how homebrewers are getting a guinness pour, just by pushing their beer with cellarmix.
So, it seems its all about high pressure through a stout tap? (and to get the high pressure they use 70/30 to avoid over-carb) So, they're running dual bottles?

 

[mckenry]

So, I guess my question / statement is that it all comes down to the tap? If all beers are pushed out using cellarmix, and only guiness or kilkenny etc are creamy its gotta be the tap right? There's no nitrogen in solution?

 

[malt junkie]

if your kegs are all carbed is there a need for straight co2? But yeah if I were to move to cellar mix I'd probably still have a bottle of co2 about.