Gladfield malt alternative chart

[Nick667]

I try to use as much Gladfield malt as I can but when using the malt alternative chart I need to know if I am converting quantities correctly.
Swap ratio uses old malt as a quantity of 1 and many of the Gladfield malts have a swap ratio of 1.2, 1.5. 1.1 ect.
The way that I read this is for every 1 kilo of old malt I use 1.8 kilos Gladfield.
Eg if I am using a recipe with 1.3kg Bairds Amber malt with a swap ratio of 1.8 I should multiply 1.3 x 1.8 = 2.34kg.
Am I reading this right or have I got it wrong, can anyone tell me?

 

[GrumpyPaul]

In short - The way I look at it I think you are right.

I do find it interesting that at a a ratio of 1:1.8 its an expensive alternative (almost double the amount).

Having a glance at that chart the high swap ratio's seem to be the darker malts. Baird's Amber is 100-140 EBC whereas the Gladfield is only 40-80EBC. So looks like the higher ratio might be to get the same amount of colour.

I do love Gladfield malts - I think they are great, but I'm certainly not brand loyal...so if I can get the same thing out of 1.3kg of the Baird's that I would out of 2.34kg of Gladfield alternative, then I'd just use Baird's.

Having said that there is more to get out of the grain than just colour - so if its the flavour profile you get out of Gladfield go for it. At the end of the day its a difference of a few dollars in grain so not overly expensive.

Someone more technically inclined than I (eg @MHB ) might chime in on whats better - more grain with lower EBC or less grain with higher.

Think it would make an interesting discussion....

 

[Nick667]

I contacted Gladfield and they sent a link to a conversion app that I cant use so it wasnt a lot of help really.
I just want to get my head around it and make sure that I have got the right way around.

 

[theSeekerr]

I contacted Gladfield and they sent a link to a conversion app that I cant use so it wasnt a lot of help really.
I just want to get my head around it and make sure that I have got the right way around.

Someone who can use the app could double-check a conversion for you if you wanted....

 

[philrob]

I haven't seen their chart. but I'm not sure you are not doing it back to front?
If so, then let's say for 5 kg of other malt at a swap ratio of 1.1 you would use 5 divided by 1.1 = 4.55 kg Gladfield?

 

[Nick667]

I haven't seen their chart. but I'm not sure you are not doing it back to front?
If so, then let's say for 5 kg of other malt at a swap ratio of 1.1 you would use 5 divided by 1.1 = 4.55 kg Gladfield?

Thats what I am worried about.

 

[kadmium]

Thats what I am worried about.

Surely that Gladfield malt can't be 80% less efficient or contribute PPG compared to other malts. I mean, how could a major maltster have a malt with a PPG 80% less than their competitors? I would think it's the other way around but then again what do I know! I didn't do good at maths in school haahha

 

[MHB]

According to Cryer Malts website Bairds Amber is 85-105EBC, the range offered for the Gladfield 40-80 is ridiculous being 100% or a range of 40EBC you would need batch specific information or you're just rolling dice.
To get a rough estimate of the amount to substitute you would normally use a mid range colour (lacking a precise value).
The actual calculation is the same as the one you would use for a hop substitution or C1V=C2V2
Colour1*Mass1 = Colour2*Mass2
So using the mid range value guide if your recipe called for say 500g of Bairds Amber at 95EBC (nominal) with Gladfield Amber at 60EBC (nominal)
500*95=Mass2*60, (500*95)/60=792g

As a substitution method its not bad when the colours are close, just getting a close colour match wont guarantee a close flavour match. If it did we could just use a smidge of roast as a universal tint, in the same example it would only take 40g of 1200 EBC Roast to colour match.
The Gladfield website describes their Amber as being a Honey or Melanoidin Malt, Just because two maltsters use the same name (i.e. Amber) doesn't mean the malts are the same, or even similar.
In this case I would not necessarily choose it, the Gladfield Brown Malt, it is a closer fit even if a little darker, so you will need a little less.

Have used a few Gladfield malts, they are OK, not what I would call exceptional but good solid quality brewing malt. Problem is with the way they are available to me they are competing head to head with the best of the UK and European malts, frankly they are good but not that good.
Mark

Bairds Amber
Gladfield look for Biscuit and Brown Malt

 

[GrumpyPaul]

Here's a snippet of the Gladfield chart. Looks like Gladfield suggest thier Biscuit is the swap for Baird Amber

So using MHB's maths above

If your recipe called for say 1kg of Bairds Amber at 120EBC (mid of 100-140) with Gladfield Biscuit at 60EBC (mid of 40-80)
1k*120=Mass2*60, (120)/60=2kg

So I guess Gladfield 1:1.80 ratio is close-ish

 

[Nullnvoid]

I have the app, it has the built in conversion tool. You select the inferior malt and it tells you how much of the Glorious malt to use.

In your example, 1.3kg Bairds Amber = 1.95kg Gladfield Biscuit malt.

And I'm just joking on the inferior/glorious. I have no affiliation

 

[philrob]

This chart only goes to colour. It doesn't do anything else. Once you start to change the quantities, your whole flavour etc concept for your recipe goes out the window, as I don't accept their substitutions are a true substitute for malt character or flavour etc. As MHB said, and I quote "just getting a close colour match wont guarantee a close flavour match".
I don't care much about colour in my beers, it's flavour I'm after.
For example, in my APA I normally use about 4.5 kg Pale Malt (whatever I have a sack of at the time), about 200 gr Simpsons Heritage Crystal, and 40 to 50 gr Weyermann Chocolate Wheat. Comes out looking just fine for me, and gives me the flavour and character I'm looking for. My suggestion is to design your recipe for flavour and character, not colour. Maybe different if you are trying to win best of show in a comp, but hey, how many of us manage to brew one of those?

 

[MHB]

As a malt to snack on nothing comes close to Heritage Crystal! just love it.
Mark

 

[Nick667]

I have the app, it has the built in conversion tool. You select the inferior malt and it tells you how much of the Glorious malt to use.

In your example, 1.3kg Bairds Amber = 1.95kg Gladfield Biscuit malt.

And I'm just joking on the inferior/glorious. I have no affiliation

So even the app does something different again and I should forget about my calculator.
Being in NZ I am just trying to be a bit loyal to the locals but thinking to much really hurts whats left of my brain and it looks like I am wasting my time. It has to be easy.
Maybe better to use only 1:1 ratios or use the malts listed.

 

[MHB]

If I lived in Kiwi I would probably use a fair amount of Gladfields, they are fine malt.
You need to make rational choices when you are substituting, malts fall into groups.
Base malts are mostly Ale, Pilsner (pale), Wheat, if the recipe calls for say 5kg of Bairds Ale, you could use Gladfields Ale
but two points, rarely is it ever a 1:1 swap and it will always taste different.
From the Bairds website

From Gladfields

Must admit that I like the information supplied on the Gladfield website, most of the worlds maltsters could take lessons!
When it comes to working how much of a malt we need the most important piece of information is the CGAI (coarse grind as is) and every maltster appears to have their own name, Gladfields call it Extract - Coarse As-is.
The value they give is 77%, which means that in a lab test 1,000g would yield 770g of extract.
The Bairds Ale information is much less complete, they give the value for the Fine Grind Dry of the malt as 81.5%, but say it contains 4.5% water (moisture) so that brings the malt back to 81.5-4.5=77% (might come as a surprise that most Ale malts have a CGAI around 76-78%), there is also another factor called the C/F Difference (you can see it in the Gladfield info as 1%) somewhere in the 1-2% range is pretty good, so you need to discount what you think you are going to get from the Bairds by that (unless stated use 1.5%) which brings the Bairds CGAI down to 77-1.5=75.5%

To work out the substation for 5kg Bairds
5*75.5=X*77 you need 4.903kg of Gladfield Ale malt.
Note that the colour will be close but not the same, that the flavour will be similar but not identical.

Point is that if the app or substitution table said to use a 1:1 replacement, they would be close, but you wouldn't make the same beer.

It gets a lot harder when you are substituting specialty malts, I think my local carries about 20 "Crystal Malts"
The flavour and colour of crystal malts are all closely related, but if your recipe called for Bairds Medium Crystal, that comes in at 140-160 EBC, you could substitute any of the crystal malts that are close to 150EBC.
BB Australian Medium Crystal, Caramunich 3, Simpsons Heritage Crystal and doubtless one of the Gladfield Crystal malts would all be very close ( yes the Medium 90-130 EBC) in terms of colour and gross character but again would all taste quite different.

Designing a recipe is a lot harder than just grabbing a bit of this and that and seeing what happens (well lots of that goes on to). If you have a specific beer in mind find a good recipe and if you need to make changes do it carefully keeping to malts that are as close as possible to those called for.
Brew and refine the recipe to suit taste or target.
Mark
edit 160 does not equal 600