Gelatine Has No Fining Ability

[haysie]

Good thread, I have doubts about gelatine. I have at most times had really good results. Until...... I opened a new bottle 2-3 months ago. In that 2-3 months none of my kegs are clearing like they should, I CPBF a case swap beer last week after being in the keg for a month, inspecting the bottles today I have yeast sediment. Tells me the gelatine didnt work in the keg. I have some nice lagers that have not flocced in the keg ATM as well. I may have a shit batch?
Inconsistency in "fining" ability is certainly food for thought.

I must try Isinglass, other brewers have told me its a complete PITA to prepare? I googled it and got wide and varying opinions.

 

[manticle]

GG sell an already prepared solution.

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=7514

 

[haysie]

GG sell an already prepared solution.

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=7514

,
Thx, looks a little less painfull. If I buy 2 I figure I have enough for 5 cornies, about a buck and a half a keg. I wont go broke checking it out. Add cold,ferment temp or dont matter?

 

[manticle]

Like you mate I haven't used as yet. I have some on order so I can check it out - should hopefully arrive next week. I think cold but that's based on memory and based on the idea that it can help with chill haze. I'll find out and get back to you.

 

[ekul]

Bribie, could you do an experiment with agar as well please.

 

[Bribie G]

I like the look of the pre prepared stuff.
Also I work in Chinatown and can easily get Agar, so will do.

FWIW Wards McKenzie have got back to me:

Dear Mr Gardner,

Thank you for contacting us via our website.

Our gelatine is a natural setting agent, derived from collagen (Beef skin origin), the main structural protein in connective tissue and bone. Product is type B (alkaline processed) gelatine.

Our prime supplier is Australian. In situations where there are supply or quality issues, we always have secondary suppliers (Brazil or New Zealand) which match the quality of the original product. They are comparable in areas of origin, particle size, bloom strength, ash, moisture content, and pH.

I hope that I have been able to satisfactorily answer your query. If you need further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thanks

Priyanka Nijhawan
Customer Service/ QA Manager


So at least we know it's bovine and it's consistent from batch to batch.

 

[brett mccluskey]

I need to see a doctor for saying that supermarket gelatine works fine for me and I don't need to spend ten times as much?

I think you have forgotten to take your anti-melodrama pills today, Champ .

BribieG's work may not be based rigorously on experiemental procedure, but he's doing unbiased things here - and that's good.

MHB is constantly trying to debunk supermarket cheap finings and I think he's full of it and biased because he sells expensive alternatives. My 2c, and YMMV.

Why does he care what we use if it works for us?

My comments in no way related to Bribies experiment,only your predilection for ending ,what at times,can be informed,intelligent,constructive discussion and debate with a personally insulting,derogatory comment.To put it basically,SHITSTIRRING! It brings nothing to the thread ,and just lowers the standard of the discussion B) The comments and opinions i expressed to you in another thread ,when you stuck your nose in out of nowhere, with a smartarse comment the other night,i stand by. You condemn yourself by your own comments,Nick.This has gone as far as it needs to as far as i'm concerned,so no more comments from me.
To quote Tenzyn Gyatso,H.H.The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet.."Patience and tolerance are not a sign of weakness... but a sign of STRENGTH! You give me the oppoprtunity to practice TRUE patience ,Nick,and i thank you for it :super:

 

[rendo]

Hi BG,

Any updates on further your experiments with Gelatine, different yeasts, etc? I appreciate the effort you go to!

Pretty Pretty Please

Rendo

I like the look of the pre prepared stuff.
Also I work in Chinatown and can easily get Agar, so will do.

FWIW Wards McKenzie have got back to me:

Dear Mr Gardner,

Thank you for contacting us via our website.

Our gelatine is a natural setting agent, derived from collagen (Beef skin origin), the main structural protein in connective tissue and bone. Product is type B (alkaline processed) gelatine.

Our prime supplier is Australian. In situations where there are supply or quality issues, we always have secondary suppliers (Brazil or New Zealand) which match the quality of the original product. They are comparable in areas of origin, particle size, bloom strength, ash, moisture content, and pH.

I hope that I have been able to satisfactorily answer your query. If you need further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thanks

Priyanka Nijhawan
Customer Service/ QA Manager


So at least we know it's bovine and it's consistent from batch to batch.

 

[Nick JD]

You give me the oppoprtunity to practice TRUE patience ,Nick,and i thank you for it :super:

Your welcome, Grasstoper. Now let's get back on topic.

 

[[email protected]]

I like the look of the pre prepared stuff.
Also I work in Chinatown and can easily get Agar, so will do.

FWIW Wards McKenzie have got back to me:

Dear Mr Gardner,

Thank you for contacting us via our website.

Our gelatine is a natural setting agent, derived from collagen (Beef skin origin), the main structural protein in connective tissue and bone. Product is type B (alkaline processed) gelatine.

Our prime supplier is Australian. In situations where there are supply or quality issues, we always have secondary suppliers (Brazil or New Zealand) which match the quality of the original product. They are comparable in areas of origin, particle size, bloom strength, ash, moisture content, and pH.

I hope that I have been able to satisfactorily answer your query. If you need further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thanks

Priyanka Nijhawan
Customer Service/ QA Manager


So at least we know it's bovine and it's consistent from batch to batch.

Sorry to resurrect this thread but just noticed the reply Bribie got back from McKenzie.
The key thing with Gelatin is if it is type B or type A where type B is bovine origin and type A is from pigskin or fish . From my reading type B is alkaline process and type A uses an acid process.



The measure of the how much cationic charge the gelatin has(hence, fining ability) is given by the isoelectric point. The isoelectric point for type B is around 5 and the isoelectric point for type A is 6 to 9. The other important aspect is that the gelatin molecule will only behave as a cation if the pH is less than the isoelectric point.



For beer, type B will work as a fining agent but may be not be as good as type A.

It is possible that the HBS finings are type A and potentially have greater positive charge.

I personnally use the McKenzies for some beers and find it works. I think the other thing that affects the performance is how homebrewers prep it. I generally put a teaspoon in 150ml cold sanitised water and let it bloom for 15 minutes and then heat gently to around 70 - 75degC and let pasturise and then add to the beer. I would have thought that adding boiling water straight from the kettle may denature the gelatin which could be another reason that people have found it not to work - this was certainly my view when I started brewing 15 years ago.



Some good info here if you want to get into it:

http://www.gelatin.co.za/fining.htm

 

[jonocarroll]

[...] <lots of science> [...]

QuantumBrewer Likes this.

Cheers, abc. Much more useful than 'I did this therefore it works because x=y...' posts.

 

[Nick JD]

I generally put a teaspoon in 150ml cold sanitised water and let it bloom for 15 minutes and then heat gently to around 70 - 75degC and let pasturise and then add to the beer.

Now that's a potentially HUGE aspect to this discussion. I use this method ... with great results with non-motherflocking yeasts.

EDIT - I see BribieG has used the dissolve in water method.

Do the LHBSs finings require blooming and pasteurizing? Or are they chuck in?

 

[[email protected]]

Now that's a potentially HUGE aspect to this discussion. I use this method ... with great results with non-motherflocking yeasts.

EDIT - I see BribieG has used the dissolve in water method.

Do the LHBSs finings require blooming and pasteurizing? Or are they chuck in?

BribieG needs to clarify his preparation method. His wording is: Ward's brand from supermarket, rounded tsp in Pyrex jug with around 80 ml of kettle water.

Has he just added boiling water from to the dry finings to disolve? This is the method I used a long time ago to limited success until I do the bloom pasturise thing which has had consistently great results.

 

[stux]

I like the look of the pre prepared stuff.
Also I work in Chinatown and can easily get Agar, so will do.

FWIW Wards McKenzie have got back to me:

Dear Mr Gardner,

Thank you for contacting us via our website.

Our gelatine is a natural setting agent, derived from collagen (Beef skin origin), the main structural protein in connective tissue and bone. Product is type B (alkaline processed) gelatine.

Our prime supplier is Australian. In situations where there are supply or quality issues, we always have secondary suppliers (Brazil or New Zealand) which match the quality of the original product. They are comparable in areas of origin, particle size, bloom strength, ash, moisture content, and pH.

I hope that I have been able to satisfactorily answer your query. If you need further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thanks

Priyanka Nijhawan
Customer Service/ QA Manager


So at least we know it's bovine and it's consistent from batch to batch.

Actually, I think this confirms MHB's point.

"[various supplier batches] are comparable in areas of origin, particle size, bloom strength, ash, moisture content, and pH"

They don't say "fining capability" there

Mind you, maybe they do, I don't know what gives gelatine its fining capability.

They specifically say [paraphrased] "we use multiple suppliers but they are matched based on 6 characteristics so that they are comparable"

This actually confirms that they do have different suppliers batch to batch, and they don't necessarily have the same characteristics.

 

[[email protected]]

Stux

If you read the link on post 110 it goes into great detail on why gelatine is a fining. In short it develops a positive cationic charge (+ve) that attracts the yeast. How well it does is dependent on type and manufacturing process.

Essentially the McKenzies will work according to the theory.

Have a read of the link.

 

[jonocarroll]

positive cationic charge (+ve)

I've praised you for science, now I'll slap your wrist... the above is a little redundant, no? Like a negative sub-zero temperature (-ve).

Is this entire thread merely trying to counter the argument that 'X doesn't work because I used it incorrectly and it did nothing'?

X will only work (even if the theory is correct) if used correctly.

 

[[email protected]]

Slap accepted. Need to read the posts more carefully!

 

[manticle]

Actually, I think this confirms MHB's point.

"[various supplier batches] are comparable in areas of origin, particle size, bloom strength, ash, moisture content, and pH"

They don't say "fining capability" there

When I ordered my HBS gelatine finings recently from grain and grape, I was told by John that they quite openly just use the best quality food grade gelatin they can find. There's no mysterious special gelatin produced just for fining.

 

[haysie]

Like you mate I haven't used as yet. I have some on order so I can check it out - should hopefully arrive next week. I think cold but that's based on memory and based on the idea that it can help with chill haze. I'll find out and get back to you.

I got my 2 vials along with my monthly hit of other brewing goodies. I have done a bit of reading and listening, yet still cant come up with the "when to add" cold or otherwise. Most threads list the raw product, some other threads list the commercial inline onway to the brite tank, then other threads talk about denaturing at above 5deg.
So to clarify B) , i have the biofine product, unsure at what temp to throw it on the keg. Some kegs I cc, others I dont.

Anybody?

 

[manticle]

I received mine the other day, yet to use it. Have you asked GG what their recommendations are?

Presumably instructions on preparing the raw product also talk about how and when to add prepared? My assumption is that only the first step has been done and the rest would be as usually recommended for isinglass.

Let me know when you find out.

I would have thought that adding boiling water straight from the kettle may denature the gelatin which could be another reason that people have found it not to work - this was certainly my view when I started brewing 15 years ago.

Gelatin proteins denature at around 40 degrees. Not sure the denaturing of the proteins has an effect on the electrical charge.

By not sure I mean not sure but if it does, then it should never be heated much above body temp.