Gelatine Has No Fining Ability

[manticle]

MHB - the same could be said potentially for any product - eg how do you know each time that you are buying the same as last time? I guess you have to trust a little that consistency is going to serve the manufacturer as much as the consumer. Products of any type do change - sometimes because of cost, sometimes because of quality, sometimes something other.

Bribie G's experiment won't prove anything absolutely but it's still interesting as I believe my experiment comparing HB finings to isinglass to various supermarket gelatine to no finings will be interesting (still waiting for said finings to arrive). Conclusive - no. Interesting to various members of the board including myself? Yes.

Have you yourself tried supermarket gelatin to see if it does anything? Considering the number of homebrewers who swear by them, it's worthy of experiential investigation surely?
Not difficult to check out either even if it's a little bit unscientific.

To add: the website you've linked (GMAP) even quotes gelatin being used to clarify beer and wine. Of course people are going to be interested in these things and in the cheaper ways of doing it. Don't you ever watch mythbusters?

Beverages
By acting as a coagulant, gelatin can be used to precipitate impurities during the manufacture of wine, beer, cider and juices. It has the advantages of unlimited shelf life in its dry form, ease of handling, rapid preparation and brilliant clarification.

 

[Bribie G]

The idea of the McKenzies / Wards is not to go cheap, as such. It's a simple extension of not buying little jars of coffee when I can get the kilo drum of Nescafe on special from time to time. My usual supplier (A sponsor) of nearly all my requirements does not stock gelatine finings. So along with my ricez and sugaz I head for the supermarkets.

The local supermarkets do sell finings, in the form of Brigalow gelatine finings in single dose packs. However they have tubs of gelatine in another aisle and I have no information that the two are substantially different compounds. Just as I have no information that a 3kg bag of sugar is in any way different to the substance in the little single serve sugar 'straws'. I have emailed Wards McKenzies to ask if their batches differ in animal origin, together with a short description of what finings are, and why that is of relevance to their products.

Edit: maybe a few more members could start posting piccies of their fined bottles. There was a long running thread on show me your drained kettle fulla shyte FFS :huh: - why not have a thread that may be half way useful.

 

[Nick JD]

Grow up!

Flocculate!

 

[Nick JD]

It's just adding a positively charged thing to attract the negatively charged yeast clumps and make them inclined to sink.

You can mix up a couple of egg whites and achieve the same thing.

Or, you can by my magic beans. Only ten times the price.

 

[DU99]

Question ..what is it we are trying to stop,and why is it so evil..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coopers_Brewery

 

[MHB]

manticle
I have never said supermarket gelatine won't work, just that it isn't going work reliably, because fining isn't the job it's made for.
I'm not putting anything in my beer that I can't be reasonably confidant is going to do the job I chose it for, be that Malt, Hops, Yeast or Fining.
Now you and I both know that if a dozen people did the same experiment and 11 showed what Bribies' test did and the 12^th reported a brilliant success an element of AHB'ers would be saying "use it works".
And yes I have in what is getting on toward 30 years of home brewing tried gelatine and most of the other supposed home brew improvers, my conclusion is that good ingredients and good brewing make good beer. In this instance I would choose either Isinglass or a Gelatine made to be used as a fining, because I know it will work.

Shame you edited your post, I was going to suggest that "a bit unscientific" is a not unlike like being a bit pregnant, but maybe you worked that out for yourself.
Also in response to your edit: - yes I know gelatine is made for fining beer WTF do you think I sell people when they ask for finings! I sell them a product made to do the job, not one made to set brawn.
Yes I am familiar with myth busters, based on the evidence posted so far the "Myth" that supermarket gelatine works as a fining would be "Busted"

MHB

 

[hirns]

"very common misconception... temperature does not really matter to finings and in fact they will drop yeast faster in room temperature wort than in 4C wort." Thirsty Boy

Thirsty, I believe that you have posted this before and it makes sense if we are talking about gelatine having a positive charge and attracting negatively charged particals. However, in my practical based science brain I've always then concluded that the gelatine particals set around the suspended particals to encourage them to precipitate. As mum's jelly allways sets better and faster in the fridge, I've always assumed that geletine works better at cooler temps. I'm in no way challenging you (and you have clearly stated that it is a misconception) as I've used geletine in my fermenters at room temp for years and I do see a difference, however, I have assumed that the results would be better again if I could chill first. Additionally, in regards to fluffy bottoms, are people talking about picking up a hot tallie or a refrigerated one?

Seeking clarity!

Cheers

Hirns

l

 

[MHB]

Loosely (pun intended) fluffy bottoms are mainly caused by using too much fining (of whatever type). As TB said it's about charge. If there is an excess of the fining the available Positives aren't cancelled out by Negatives so the excess Positives repel each other and just won't ever settle tight.

With the right dose of fining the yeast and the fining accrete into a bigger, denser particles and then Stokes Law comes into play, they sink faster. If you look at the equation you will see that the relative density of the particle and the liquid it's in play a big role in the rate of sedimentation. If you're filtering same effect (different cause) it's just easier to filter out bigger particles than small ones.

MHB


Oh and some yeast just doesnt settle well and will always give fluffy bottoms, e.g. Hefeweizen and Coopers, but thats not all bad.

M

 

[brett mccluskey]

I come to AHB to discuss beer and brewing, yes I'm a retailer, but you go and find one instance of me engaging in marketing outside a retail thread in the 5 years I have been a member. In spite of trying to offer helpful advice and on occasion playing the devil's advocate, which let's face it this place needs occasionally.

Even in the face of provocation from demonstrably ignorant foul mouthed pratts, I'm going to resist the temptation of resorting to personal abuse, shame we can't have a discussion without some people taking it personally and trying (however badly) to play the man not the ball.

Grow up!

MHB

+2 After 6/7 months on this site ,it's fairly obvious who the shitstirrers/tossers are <_< ,and who the ppl who can offer informed ,intelligent,constructive comment are too :icon_cheers: Nick JD, you are obviously someone who craves attention for some reason.Get some help, buddy.Doctors and the proper medication can do wonders nowdays.

 

[hirns]

THanks MHB, that did make things more clear!

Cheers

Hirns

 

[winkle]

Loosely (pun intended) fluffy bottoms are mainly caused by using too much fining (of whatever type). As TB said it's about charge. If there is an excess of the fining the available Positives aren't cancelled out by Negatives so the excess Positives repel each other and just won't ever settle tight.

With the right dose of fining the yeast and the fining accrete into a bigger, denser particles and then Stokes Law comes into play, they sink faster. If you look at the equation you will see that the relative density of the particle and the liquid it's in play a big role in the rate of sedimentation. If you're filtering same effect (different cause) it's just easier to filter out bigger particles than small ones.

MHB


Oh and some yeast just doesnt settle well and will always give fluffy bottoms, e.g. Hefeweizen and Coopers, but thats not all bad.

M

Thanks for your thoughts MHB, a light in the dark alley.

 

[Nick JD]

Nick JD, you are obviously someone who craves attention for some reason.Get some help, buddy.Doctors and the proper medication can do wonders nowdays.

I need to see a doctor for saying that supermarket gelatine works fine for me and I don't need to spend ten times as much?

I think you have forgotten to take your anti-melodrama pills today, Champ .

BribieG's work may not be based rigorously on experiemental procedure, but he's doing unbiased things here - and that's good.

MHB is constantly trying to debunk supermarket cheap finings and I think he's full of it and biased because he sells expensive alternatives. My 2c, and YMMV.

Why does he care what we use if it works for us?

 

[Silo Ted]

But it's cheap so this pointless discussion will go on and on and...

Any experimentation posted here, as unscientific as it may be, is a good thing IMO, and there should be more of it, instead of just repeating gospel truths as fact. Im not suggesting you don't know your stuff, because you obviously have the experience, but slagging off even the most basic of tests might be read as being a bit negative. Overall MHB I agree with what youre saying about a consistent product designed for brewing, however this thread discussion is not entirely pointless, and I urge everyone to conduct their own tests on various elements of this hobby.

A mate of mine taught me a good way of looking at things when trying out stuff with brewing. Even if the outcome isn't what was expected, its still of as much benefit because it shows that a perceived idea isn't always correct. An example is when he bought some distilled water to do some refractometer calibration tests. The outcome was that tap water yielded the same readings, and I flippantly said 'oh thats a waste of your $3". I was cheerfully corrected with him saying that for $3, it still proved something - that distilled water wasn't necessary. Do you get my drift ? Often its what doesnt happen thats as important as what does.

In BribieG's instance, this little test does tell me something. That his recipe combo, in combination with his technique, didn't actually need finings at all, because of the clarity of the unfined brew sample. How do you get clearer that 'crystal clear'? Specifically designed fining agents wouldn't have made one bit of difference in this instance.

 

[olde]

Finings? Animal gelatin? Dunno about anyone else, but wtf would I put that shit in my beer? 2 weeks in the fermenter, 3 weeks in the keg and my beers pour very clear. Besides, I drink outta a stein and can't see if it's cloudy anyway.

 

[manticle]

manticle
I have never said supermarket gelatine won't work, just that it isn't going work reliably, because fining isn't the job it's made for.
I'm not putting anything in my beer that I can't be reasonably confidant is going to do the job I chose it for, be that Malt, Hops, Yeast or Fining.

Fair point - doesn't render this experiment uninteresting or useless which is what I was trying to get at. Many people (not just ahbers) report success using supermarket gelatin. Seeing somebody actually do it is at least as informative as just hearing people say either 'it works' or 'there are better products'.

Now you and I both know that if a dozen people did the same experiment and 11 showed what Bribies' test did and the 12^th reported a brilliant success an element of AHB'ers would be saying "use it works".

Actually this whole discussion has made me order both isinglass and HB gelatin finings (pretty cheap too - I think supermarket for me is as much about convenience) so I can see the difference for myself. More recently I haven't been fining beers at all - just CC and have generally been noticing clarity hasn't suffered remarkably. Sure some people will insisst black is white because it's cheap but I'm interested in what works. If two things work equally well and one is cheap then of course I'll go for the cheapest, all things being equal

And yes I have in what is getting on toward 30 years of home brewing tried gelatine and most of the other supposed home brew improvers, my conclusion is that good ingredients and good brewing make good beer. In this instance I would choose either Isinglass or a Gelatine made to be used as a fining, because I know it will work.

Again fair point. My own is that other people are also interested in trying and seeing for themselves. Makes sense, no? I was told by someone selling finings not to bother as wards/mckenzies/davis was the same thing. You tell me they aren't. That makes me curious and interested in seeing what works.

Shame you edited your post, I was going to suggest that "a bit unscientific" is a not unlike like being a bit pregnant, but maybe you worked that out for yourself.
Also in response to your edit: - yes I know gelatine is made for fining beer WTF do you think I sell people when they ask for finings! I sell them a product made to do the job, not one made to set brawn.
Yes I am familiar with myth busters, based on the evidence posted so far the "Myth" that supermarket gelatine works as a fining would be "Busted"

MHB

Actually that bit is still there - my edit was purely to include the link and correct a couple of typos. Yes the phrase a 'bit unscientific' isn't the best (although not on the same level as 'a bit pregnant) - essentially I mean while inconclusive, the results of this test are still of interest and value. The science/method/sample group of many proper studies can be flawed and subject to criticism. Very few are beyond reproach. They may still give some interesting results but are rarely considered conclusive in and of themselves. They simply add to a body of evolving understanding. So too this makes some people not accept the HB truth that supermarket gelatin is as effective as proprietary finings and at least make some of them want to try for themselves (at least that's what it does to me).

You yourself have suggested that brewing has no right/wrong answers and that you come here to discuss these things which is what I see happening here.

 

[daemon]

MHB is constantly trying to debunk supermarket cheap finings and I think he's full of it and biased because he sells expensive alternatives. My 2c, and YMMV.

Why does he care what we use if it works for us?

I think that's a bit unfair to accuse MHB of being biased just because he sells an alternative, in fact I would say he's offered both information and reasoning. I never realised how much of a difference there was with gelatine (not that I use gelatine much anyway) and he's provided a lot of info as to why. Sure he's a retailer and therefore has some vested interest in the products he sells (I'd be worried if he didn't!) but I haven't seen him trying to force anyone to buy from him.

I'd say he cares because like many other passionate brewers, he wants to improve his beer and share the knowledge with others.

I'm now interested to see the comparison with Isinglass (from any retailer ) and no finings, I think BribeG has started a good discussion and I'm interested in the final results.

 

[goomboogo]

MHB - the same could be said potentially for any product - eg how do you know each time that you are buying the same as last time? I guess you have to trust a little that consistency is going to serve the manufacturer as much as the consumer. Products of any type do change - sometimes because of cost, sometimes because of quality, sometimes something other.

I think MHB's contention regarding consistency of product isn't related to the quality of the production process but rather the possibility of differences in constituents from batch to batch. Differences in fining ability may occur depending on whether the base ingredient is bovine or porcine. I'm sure he will correct me if I've misunderstood the basis of his argument.

 

[manticle]

Yeah I understand that bit. It does make me curious though, if there's qualitative differences between different brands of food related gelatine. For example is gold leaf gelatine a high quality bovine based gelatine? Would that work as well as HB finings? I'm really not interested in just the cheapness of the product (gold leaf gelatin ain't cheap anyway) - I'm more interested in learning about what is going on, why and observing it for myself.

Curiosity not tightarsedness. I'm all for quality ingrediients making quality products - I used to work as a chef and frown upon inferior quality products being used in place of superior quality ones. Same with my beer which is why I will experiment with weyerman and dingemans malts rather than take anyone else's word and why I predominantly use liquid yeasts. You can't know this stuff until you give it a go though and just because something is expensive it doesn't become automatically better. The adage 'you get what you pay for' is a bit blanket for my liking. Just eating an $8 noodle soup at a great vientnamese place and comparing it with an expensive restaurant version can tell you that. There are some good quality, cheap things, some innovative ways of producing cheap things without skimping on quality and then a heck of a lot of rubbish, cheap shit things that aren't worth the effort.

My GG order has been delayed so it will be a while before I can do my own comparison. I'll post it here rather than start a new thread I think.

 

[MHB]

I will make one last attempt to get across the point I have been trying to make.
When a manufacture like Davis or Ward (whoever) choose a gelatine to be packaged under their name, I am sure that as reputable suppliers they have a specification and demand good quality safe supply.
My point and the only point I have been trying to make is that that specification doesn't include the "FINING" ability of the gelatine. It will concern itself with the setting ability, level of contaminants, microbe count... all the things that a quality seller of a cooking ingredient needs to know.
When a home brew supplier sources gelatine the fining ability would come first.
Because any fining ability is coincidental in the cooking product, you don't know if what you are buying will work or not, when you buy the made for the job product it will work I don't put a might work in my beer!

Just because the packet you got at the supermarket last week works tells you nothing about the fining ability of next week's purchase.
To think all gelatine is the same would be like saying all malt is the same, or all yeast is the same, all sugars are the same if I said that you guys would think I was an idiot.
Not all gelatine is the same.
MHB

You yourself have suggested that brewing has no right/wrong answers and that you come here to discuss these things which is what I see happening here.

I have said often enough that "there is rarely a single right answer in brewing" there is as I am sure you are aware a fundamental difference between the two statements. I have even said "there are three ways to do anything, the wrong way, a good way and a better way".
The second half of the sentence is correct, the first part is wrong. I take exception to being misquoted. There are plenty of wrong answers in brewing just a dire shortage of definitively "right" answers.
Mark

 

[manticle]

I will make one last attempt to get across the point I have been trying to make.
When a manufacture like Davis or Ward (whoever) choose a gelatine to be packaged under their name, I am sure that as reputable suppliers they have a specification and demand good quality safe supply.
My point and the only point I have been trying to make is that that specification doesn't include the "FINING" ability of the gelatine. It will concern itself with the setting ability, level of contaminants, microbe count... all the things that a quality seller of a cooking ingredient needs to know.
When a home brew supplier sources gelatine the fining ability would come first.
Because any fining ability is coincidental in the cooking product, you don't know if what you are buying will work or not, when you buy the made for the job product it will work I don't put a might work in my beer!

Just because the packet you got at the supermarket last week works tells you nothing about the fining ability of next week's purchase.
To think all gelatine is the same would be like saying all malt is the same, or all yeast is the same, all sugars are the same if I said that you guys would think I was an idiot.
Not all gelatine is the same.
MHB




I have said often enough that "there is rarely a single right answer in brewing" there is as I am sure you are aware a fundamental difference between the two statements. I have even said "there are three ways to do anything, the wrong way, a good way and a better way".
The second half of the sentence is correct, the first part is wrong. I take exception to being misquoted. There are plenty of wrong answers in brewing just a dire shortage of definitively "right" answers.
Mark

I accept both points and apologise for misquoting you. I have however tried to make what I consider reasonable points of my own and have had none acknowledged.

I'm trying to discuss, not argue and not everything I write is going to be perfect or even perfectly expressed. I am trying to make an effort though.