Fully Automated Brewing System Design

[randyrob]

Another option that would be worth considering is the Beckhoff DIN-rail I/O modules

LINKY

your looking about $5k worth of hw/sw but it should be sufficient enough to run your home brewery.

 

[manticle]

I think the idea is great as part of the enjoyment of building your own brewery is the building and innovation itself.

However I think the point made by several that you should research basic brewing processes is only going to help your design.

There is a guy who used to post here who was automating his brewery. Someone mentioned it a few posts back. I'll see if I can hunt up the thread and link it as it may give some pointers. Definitely familiarise yourself with basic processes though as it will only help you in the long run.

 

[manticle]

Couldn't find the link I was after (think the username was Jonathan) but in searching I came across these which might be useful (as well as users you could PM for advice):

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&hl=Brewbot

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;hl=automated

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;hl=automated

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;hl=automated

 

[Zizzle]

Conductivity sensors are easy and dirt cheap to even build an array of (darlington array ICs), in that way can get a crude volume measurement like a very primitive version of that sensor newguy linked to.

Bingo. It's actually easier than you think. Just have your vessel at GND. Nearly all micro controllers have muxed ADCs. e.g. 8 analog inputs. You need pretty simple signal conditioning circuitry between the probe and the ADC input. And a pull up resistor.

From there software can do the rest. Experiment and see what ADC readings correspond liquid being present. Add some debounce and threshold code and you are done.

On the brewbot, I only use 3 level probes. They have been one of the most reliable parts. Here are the two in the HLT:

But it would be good to do some experiments with a graphite rod in the HLT for level measurement. Graphite being pretty inert and resistive, it should be possible to measure some resistance change due to water level.



But like others have pointed out, I'm not sure if Bandito is at this detail level yet. I wonder if some off-the-shelf gear may help him here.


Not sure if anyone linked it yet, but HERMAN was inspirational for me in some areas.
http://hermanmachine.spaces.live.com/


BTW I think RandyRob is really on the right path with his automation project. Elegant, simple design. Automation in stages.

 

[komodo]

Building bridges big ******* deal - been there done that bought the post card. I did Webb dock bridge.

Spencer Street Railway Station Redev. worked on that one too.

Fed Square - yep

Perth Convention and Exhibition centre - yep again.

Adelaide law courts.

Just a few of the projects I\'ve worked on .
Just cause you\'ve worked as a drafty on projects doesnt mean you know anything about the actual design process and fabrication process of the entire project. Plus your working as part of massive design team who have started working on the project long before you as a drafty have even been concidered.

Personally I think you have NFI. I also think your young and have your head in the cloud as to the scale of this project . 2 months is absolutely ******* dreaming. You\'ve been given bloody good advise by people who\'ve been there done that and your ignoring them.

 

[paulwolf350]

For my 2c. I would like to say that i think it is possible to automate up to the end of the boil, but i dont see how you can automate the fermentation side. There is a lot of non science and "feel" for good and bad fermentation. Its not just a pitch, wait, pump scenario.

and as an aside, I feel your pain. I did three AG batchs, and thought I can automate this, piece of piss, I work with this every day. Well mate I am nearly $2000 down the road and have not automated 1 valve yet. ( got the gear, just havent). I really want you to succeed, (i might get some great ideas, programming or drawings) but in 2 months and $3000, from your original post, I dont think it will happen.

Best of luck, If I can help i will

Paul

 

[paulwolf350]

Couldn't find the link I was after (think the username was Jonathan)

I would like to see that one again too, it was smokin!

Paul

 

[Jono_w]

I would like to see that one again too, it was smokin!

Paul

Here it is Paul..

LINK


Cheers..

 

[thunderchild]

A wise pilot once said that evne though he flew fully automated Jumbo's for a living he loved flying a Cessna - Said it was real flying...

 

[Bandito]

Thanks for all the links guys, that great!

Not sure where this 2 month time frame came from? think someone misread something, the op states that 7 months and about $3000. Got to do a schedule soon to work out milestones.

Komodo, you worked on some nice stuff, you obviously arent scared by extremely complex projects. Its a requirement in our high end architectural sector. So many job applicants get scared off when they see how complex the stuff is - they just want a nice little square house or portal shed to detail. The point is that these sort of things, going to the moon, bridges, architectural nightmare buildings arent done by people that are scared by any amount of complexity - so although it sounds like I am not listening, I really dont see it as any where near the complexity of any of your buildings or quite a few of mine - if that sort of complexity scares people so be it, but I am used to it, so I will just get on with the job.

I saw that pilot thing on discovery channel too

 

[paulwolf350]

Not sure where this 2 month time frame came from?

Sorry mate, wires crossed, 7 months it is.
Flow diagrams were 2 months

Good luck

Paul

 

[Goofinder]

This isn't a complex project, it just has a few rather tricky technical challenges to overcome.

The actual process of brewing beer is fairly simple once you get down to it. The problem is that even without completely automating the process, there's just not that much intervention required. The cost/benefit isn't there to automate this sort of thing, especially with all the issues mentioned earlier in the thread.

You should be able to have a decent crack at it and reduce the human intervention a fair bit for $3k and 7 months, but I will be surprised (and rather impressed) if you have something that can go from recipe to beer with that sort of budget.

 

[Bandito]

True. It is not intended to be cost effective, just time effective. I work monday to friday, and really do need to work on saturday, which I did today and got home about 930pm. I would like to work tomorrow to get some urgent stuff done, so for another week I have no time to do an ag brew and will be lucky to get the cleaning and washing done. Thus a fully automated system is my goal as I will be able to work more instead of taking time off work on the weekend just to do a mash. I suppose that is also cost effective to cos I am making money while at work, so should payback within 6 months.

 

[Bandito]

This isn't a complex project, it just has a few rather tricky technical challenges to overcome.

The only one that is still stumping me is emptying the spent grain from the mash / lauter tun. Quite a few have suggested installing a large ball valve, but I am not convinced that would work - has anyone actually done this successfully themselves? There are thousands of grains, probably a hundred thousand particals in a decent sized mash, just not convinced that they would all get flushed out. Others have suggested I accept that some manual labour will be required. Putting the two together would suggest multiple MLT's that I empty out manually could be the go.

This is just part of my thought process, and am sure I will find a way, but the best case senario is that I will have to emply at least one bin. if I do decent sized batches the only difference will be that I will be emptying out one MLT as opposed to one bin - so there is really no difference there apart from the plumbing and electrical connetions. Even then, I could just tip the MTL over (providing flexible tubing and wires and rince it out with a hose connected to the washing machine tap. But how is that easier than automating a big ass geared motor to do the same thing? The big ass geared motor I am thinking of is cat no. YG-2738, has 50kg/cm torque and $35.95 with my trade discount ($45 without individually and I suppose from other posts. a lot cheaper on ebay). I have a lot of trouble trying to stop the 2.1 kg/cm tourque model with my hand around the shaft, and they turn 1/4 inch John Guest valves very well.) So as long as the MLT is mounted at the approximate centre of gravity it should be able to rotate a MLT. The tubes and wires could be looped such that the rotation of the MLT simply unwinds the loop rather than twisting them. And a dedicated garden hose style sprinkler or trigger nossle can be permanently mounted to the MLT to direct it inward, or if a hinged lid is attached to the MLT, the sprayer could be fixed and the large motorised valve can be turned on when the MLT is in the rotated position.

Hmmm, one issue here - The motor will have to be mounted above the centre of gravity when the MLT is full, so above half way up. After sparging, the centre of gravity will be much lower and so much more force will be required. I have done COG addition calculations for certain structures I have designed (7 portable 45 tonne mineral sand processing plants that are towed across the ground when the minerals run out in an area - just wanted to make sure they wouldnt fall over), but torque physics is not my strong point, will have to get out the 1600 page physics bible and learn it. I suppose I can just try it, if it isnt powerful enough find a more powerful one - the hard part is the connection between the motor and the MLT. The other option is to cut a chopping board or metal plate into the shape of a wedge or a piece of pie, where the sharp end of the pie shaped wedge will be fixed securely to the MLT, and grouves cut into the outside curve. In this way the geared motor could have a gear on it or a worm drive to increase the tourque - doubt it would be needed though.

Well if thats the hardest issue I have seen so far, what are these things that "cant be automated"? Seriously, I would like to know!

 

[Bandito]

Here is a link to a couple of my projects, most of the others are still under confidentiality and non disclosure agreements, and so not posted on the web and thus cannot disclose them. There isnt much detail in the links for the same reason - intelectual property rights are guarded with utmost secrecy.

http://rjrobbins.com.au/index.php?MMID=1436&SMID=1607
http://rjrobbins.com.au/index.php?MMID=1436&SMID=1494

And a very simple circuit diagram much like the Process flow diagram that I am doing at the moment.
http://rjrobbins.com.au/FolioFiles/243/138..._Diagrams01.pdf

No where as impressive as Komodos' but I dont think anyone can post stuff even close to kmodos's work, I have been doing mining process plants for most of my 8.5 years in the field. Should be a job here for you komodos if you pm me today (sunday)My Boss is doing final interviews atm.

And before you say 'those buildings are easy' let me add that they are full of mechanical equipment, pipes, conveyors, acid reactors and heaps more. but thats not to say they were really really hard either, just incredibly complex.

 

[Zwickel]

Bandito, I feel a little bit sorry for you and hope you wont lose your enthusiasm.

No one is doubting about your skills, we all are just missing a consistent concept of a functioning base.

You are putting the automation in the foreground, neglecting a functional base where the automation should be taking control of. (apologies for my english)

As so many experienced home brewing technical freaks here have already said, go ahead and project the brewery first, at first without any automation and then, after a couple of brews, start building intrefaces. Im sure, that will lead you to success.

When I started planning to automatize my little brewery, first I did a conception:

http://www.elcom-mayer.de/beer/Brewing_Concept.pdf

Later on, when I was sure the conception will work, I started to automatize part by part.

That will not only save you a lot of wasted time, that also will help you to safe a pretty amount of money.

Cheers mate :icon_cheers:

 

[Bandito]

Hmm. thats a lot simpler than mine at the moment! It is quite ingeneous, never considered using the fermenter as an intermediate storage for the kettle - nice. Thanks.

Yea, well, the whole 'perfect the brewing first concept' isnt really an option for me. I only have 3 AG brews under my belt, and I hope that that will be enough because work is so busy right now and thankfully will continue to be for quite some time. If I was to do another AG in the next few months it may well be at the expense of cleaning and cooking or work. Now If I was to do a brew instead of working I should probably join Brewers anonymous, as it is by working that I can pay the bills, and it is the overtime that will pay for this project - even to the extent of sending it to professional brew process engineers. The boss could probably call in a favour and get it done for free or close to it, but well, it is an option I am considering anyway.

 

[Bandito]

In general, I believe there is a misunderstanding of my design so far. I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of. Hell, not many people in the industry can read them or know the purpose of them. I wish I could wave a magic wand and produce a pretty picture that everyone can understand, but that is not the process I am following nor the intent of the project. One of the intents of the project is to expose the everyday person to the process that I am following, and mabee show how a seemingly complex process can be seen as a relatively simple one - now if I fail to produce a workable system then this process and I will be seen as a folly, but when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!

Is that too blunt? Hmmm, I have been called a lot worse in this thread, if you cant take it then dont give it!

From now on post negative comments knowing that when I succeed you will be deemed to have metorphorically licked my balls! And my signature will say 'Such and such licked my balls' etc.! After I succeed that is, and only posts from now on. Thats fair enough.

 

[kirem]

Interestingly I removed the mill from my nanobrewery yesterday. It used to feed milled malt straight into the MLT. The grain dust is a huge micro problem and I would rather forgo this automated section of the process to reduce the risk of micro issues.

It was setup for autostart (early hours of the morning whilst I slept) and autostepped its way through to mashout, ready for me to sparge when I awoke.

I have built my brewery to be as autonomous as possible from milled grain to cooled wort. The process following boiling of the wort requires too much attention to detail to automate for me. There are huge micro issues to avoid and reduce.

The enjoyment for me is using some technicial knowledge to automate the process, control and repeatability coupled with recipe design and tweaking

I started a rebuild yesterday to incorporate a lot more autonomy, like autosparge, autochill, volume measurement and control and to simplify the layout.

My system is based on the HERMS concept and my process allowed me to remove the HLT and just use a heatexchanger to provide all my heat requirements.

My suggestion to you is that you build a frame and start incorporating some of your ideas as a work in progress, some will work, some won't, but build it so it can be easily modified. Each brewday you will come up with new ideas on how to solve some of the processes that require your attendance or take time with automation. This is how I did it.

You can gather AG experience and work on process design and control along the way. Your lack of AG brewing will be a very limiting factor in your design process, so kill two birds with one stone.

My nanobrewery is designed to work in with how I brew and will probably not suit everyone and yours will probably end up the same.

Good luck.

 

[yardy]

In general, I believe there is a misunderstanding of my design so far. I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of.

that's a little arrogant mate, sorry to disapoint but it's not that complex, I would say that anyone here that has a basic understanding of brewing (not only AG) would find it relatively easy to read.

like others have said, i suggest you build a basic working brewery, brew some beer and go from there.