Fully Automated Brewing System Design

[bradsbrew]

In general, I believe there is a misunderstanding of my design so far. I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of. Hell, not many people in the industry can read them or know the purpose of them. I wish I could wave a magic wand and produce a pretty picture that everyone can understand, but that is not the process I am following nor the intent of the project. One of the intents of the project is to expose the everyday person to the process that I am following, and mabee show how a seemingly complex process can be seen as a relatively simple one - now if I fail to produce a workable system then this process and I will be seen as a folly, but when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!

Is that too blunt? Hmmm, I have been called a lot worse in this thread, if you cant take it then dont give it!

From now on post negative comments knowing that when I succeed you will be deemed to have metorphorically licked my balls! And my signature will say 'Such and such licked my balls' etc.! After I succeed that is, and only posts from now on. Thats fair enough.

WTF !! Dude, I have not read this entire thred I did read your original post when you started this and I wasnt really interested in a fully automated 5L system. I personaly have a simple set up that I am constantly upgrading and I put out some nice beers and some shockers but that is due to brewing experimentation and procedures not the rig.
Taking the whole lick my balls line is pretty fooked up. How about you build your rig and brew a consistant brew then post it to this thread.

brad

 

[pokolbinguy]

This is an interesting idea but I find it strange that Bandito says he doesn't have time to brew beer to learn more however has the time to deisgn/build/post on AHB about his automated brewery...this is bizarre indeed.

Maybe less time in front of the computer for awhile and go and make some beer. I have to completely agree that doing this will make life much easier..you need to know what can go wrong, and you wont know this in 3 brews.

Don't take this as a 'i think your an *****' post....I just think your an ***** not going and making some beer.

Anyway I will be following this for sure.

Good luck.

Pok

 

[katzke]

I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of.

Looked at your last plan on a different computer and finally all the lines showed up.

The fermentation part has a problem with the plumbing. Will not tell you just say use a hi-liter and follow the path of the wort. It can end up someplace other then a fermentor. It is also mostly unneeded. Fermenting is easy as there is no work involved just lots of waiting.

Kettle has a problem. You need to clean more then just the mash tun after each brew.

Do not know of any no-rinse powder sanitizers.

For the time and effort you are short some fluff. No way to mash hop.

The HLT and the HERMS/RIMS seem redundant.

Like everyone says go back to basics and learn more about brewing. If you do not have time to brew then read. Look at the zillions of other systems out there and put a system together that works for what you need. Then wire it up to a computer.

A fix for grain dust. Wet milling.

A fix for getting grain out of the mash tun. Suction.

Not going to design it for you even though you have basically asked us to.

Make it bigger. No need to have it only brew a six-pack. It will take the same amount of time to brew a 5-liter batch and just as long to ferment it as it will 10, 15, or 20 liters. May as well brew a respectable amount of beer for the time, recourses, and cost. I know you have lots of money because you are working. So save the planet and brew enough to make up for the environmental impact of your creation and the water it will use to clean itself. Also if you brew a larger batch you can solve some of the problems of clearing the mash tun. Simplify the grain and hop additions and also the yeast pitching. You can still brew every day of the month if you need that big of a selection of beer styles. You will need a walk in fermentation room to store all that beer for the weeks it will take to ferment and age.

I know they have coffee makers that will wake you up with a cup of coffee. I did not know they cleaned them selves and selected the beans for the next batch. Do not know of any clothes washers that will do multiple loads. I do know of a combo washer and dryer. You still need to load and unload it.

Take a look and see if you really need a system that will brew several different brews in a day. If you brew only one batch you can load all the grain in one hopper and still let it mill for you. You can look at the hop additions and make sure they will be adequate for any style you like. Heck you could even do a continuous addition like a few breweries are for there killer IPAs. If you do this then you can manually remove the grain and still push a button for the clean cycle. You also can mash hop with a single brew system.

A quick story. I had our dishwasher repaired under a recall. Some problem with wires and water that was causing them to burn houses down. The repairman told me the only appliance that should run when no one is home is a fridge and freezer. He said anyone that runs any other appliance when they are not home is wanting disaster. How happy will your neighbors be if you flood the place or bun it down just for beer?

 

[paulwolf350]

In general, I believe there is a misunderstanding of my design so far. I am sorry to post a very complex diagram that not many people can read or know the purpose of. Hell, not many people in the industry can read them or know the purpose of them. I wish I could wave a magic wand and produce a pretty picture that everyone can understand, but that is not the process I am following nor the intent of the project. One of the intents of the project is to expose the everyday person to the process that I am following, and mabee show how a seemingly complex process can be seen as a relatively simple one - now if I fail to produce a workable system then this process and I will be seen as a folly, but when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!

Is that too blunt? Hmmm, I have been called a lot worse in this thread, if you cant take it then dont give it!

From now on post negative comments knowing that when I succeed you will be deemed to have metorphorically licked my balls! And my signature will say 'Such and such licked my balls' etc.! After I succeed that is, and only posts from now on. Thats fair enough.

Way to go mate, insult all the people trying to help you

If you can get this to work, i will gladly lick your balls

I think up until this post most have been pretty accomodating to your ideas, but as far as I am concerned you are now on your own mate, good luck

 

[bradsbrew]

Way to go mate, insult all the people trying to help you

If you can get this to work, i will gladly lick your balls

I think up until this post most have been pretty accomodating to your ideas, but as far as I am concerned you are now on your own mate, good luck

Geez Paul, the only balls I would gladly lick would be my own :lol:

 

[paulwolf350]

Geez Paul, the only balls I would gladly lick would be my own :lol:

Yeah big call I know, but I will wait till I have tasted some automatic beers first, I have been called out before by all manner of para-professionals, I havnt been caught out yet.

Paul

 

[benno1973]

From now on post negative comments knowing that when I succeed you will be deemed to have metorphorically licked my balls!

Graham Saunders - is that you?!

Bandito, I don't doubt that you can design this and possibly even build it, but I don't think it would make good beer. Without an understanding of the brewing process, and all the things that can (and will) go wrong along the way, how can you design something to handle all these situations? I'm an applications developer and I'd never try to write an application without having a complete understanding of the business requirements that the application had to reflect. I'm up to 40 or 50 AG brews so far and I feel I'm still learning.

Perhaps you'd be better automating a can opener and a sugar dispenser? - it would still give you the beer you were after without half the headaches.

As far as your design is concerned - as someone said earlier, you'd need to clean the kettle after each brew as well. After a good boil I have to get a scourer out and use a fair bit of elbow grease to get the hop debris off the kettle. How do you plan on doing this? Steam and pressure?

I'd also echo sentiments of upsizing - 5L batches mean that if you're using high AA hops, you'd need to be extremely accurate in your measurements.

Anyway, despite all this, I appreciate your passion and wish you the best of luck with your project.

 

[paulwolf350]

Fermenting is easy as there is no work involved just lots of waiting.

I dont agree, not even the big micro breweries can automate the fermentation completely, there is still some maualisation, it may only be pressing buttons and checking gravity but it is still manual, it doesnt automatically ferment and then move onto the bottling line

Paul

 

[RdeVjun]

I dont agree, not even the big micro breweries can automate the fermentation completely, there is still some maualisation, it may only be pressing buttons and checking gravity but it is still manual, it doesnt automatically ferment and then move onto the bottling line

Paul

I'll second that Paul, sensing that fermentation is complete presents tremendous difficulties, so would any SG measurements for assessing mash performance or targets. A densimeter like the big boys use could be incorporated fairly simply, but the cost would blow most HBers away (hope you're all seated- maybe $10K... :blink: ), otherwise we'd all have one.

 

[yardy]

Geez Paul, the only balls I would gladly lick would be my own :lol:

if you get a rib removed it's possible, apparently.....

 

[The Mexican]

if you get a rib removed it's possible, apparently.....

we had one of these turn up at a brewers meeting in Melbourne years ago, and it wasn't until he told us that "they are watching him from inside the TV, & he had to stay out of their line of vision, & also, that no one would talk to him." That was when we payed a bit more attention to him. Maybe our friend on this thread has no one to talk to either.

 

[katzke]

I'll second that Paul, sensing that fermentation is complete presents tremendous difficulties, so would any SG measurements for assessing mash performance or targets. A densimeter like the big boys use could be incorporated fairly simply, but the cost would blow most HBers away (hope you're all seated- maybe $10K... :blink: ), otherwise we'd all have one.

I will include paulwolf350 in this reply.

My typed word was miss typed or misinterpreted. I will take the blame as both of you came to the same conclusion.

I never meant to say that the fermentation process is easy to automate.

I meant to say the process is so easy that there is no reason to automate it. I say this because you put yeast in the proper temp wort and let it set for a few weeks. Not hard to do as he has a fermentation fridge already or at least that is the way I remember it. You check the temp of the wort and pitch the yeast. Leave it for a week or so and check gravity. I personally leave it for 2 to 3 weeks or longer and only check it when I am ready to bottle or keg. The exception is if I am gong to do a dry hop. I have only brewed ales so do not have anything to say about lagering or aging brews like barley wines or aging on wood chips or liquor soaked chips.

If you are going to harvest yeast from a conical fermentor then it takes a bit more monitoring. Something I hope too never have to deal with. I am a dry yeast user at this time and live only about a hundred miles from the big Wyeast people. You do remember what miles are?

If the brewing process was good and the yeast was healthy then the ferment should go off with no problems. Given that the temp is monitored, as I recall he is doing with a fridge.

So I say again fermentation is easy, or simple, and I will add there is no reason to try and complicate it with automation.

 

[rwmingis]

...when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!

Jesus man, what are you like?

I appreciate what you are trying to do and am trying to give you input in areas where I have knowledge; but I don't think you appreciate what we are trying to do, help you, and alert you to some of the problems you WILL be running into. Now you're just taking the piss.

Unsubscribing...

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

but when it succeeds, all of those that doubted can all lick my balls!

This reminds me of that scene from deadwood... "those who doubt me suck **** by choice".

 

[BottleBitch]

View attachment DK_HANDBUCH_20__20SD106FEN_20__2006_00.pdf

Thanks Andy,

Okay, I am going to freak everyone out here:

one million happiness points to anyone that can tell me the dielectric constant or magnetic permeance of wort. An extra 10 million points for both, and double it if it is a complex reading!

Should be close to water I suppose?

Ok I had a look at work and it only gives valves for sugar solutions, but here you go I have attached the two Endress+Hauser PDF files with all the info.

Have fun


Brett

 

[manticle]

deadwood...

OT: Best TV show ever written.

 

[RdeVjun]

I will include paulwolf350 in this reply.

My typed word was miss typed or misinterpreted. I will take the blame as both of you came to the same conclusion.

I never meant to say that the fermentation process is easy to automate.

I meant to say the process is so easy that there is no reason to automate it. I say this because you put yeast in the proper temp wort and let it set for a few weeks. Not hard to do as he has a fermentation fridge already or at least that is the way I remember it. You check the temp of the wort and pitch the yeast. Leave it for a week or so and check gravity. I personally leave it for 2 to 3 weeks or longer and only check it when I am ready to bottle or keg. The exception is if I am gong to do a dry hop. I have only brewed ales so do not have anything to say about lagering or aging brews like barley wines or aging on wood chips or liquor soaked chips.

If you are going to harvest yeast from a conical fermentor then it takes a bit more monitoring. Something I hope too never have to deal with. I am a dry yeast user at this time and live only about a hundred miles from the big Wyeast people. You do remember what miles are?

If the brewing process was good and the yeast was healthy then the ferment should go off with no problems. Given that the temp is monitored, as I recall he is doing with a fridge.

So I say again fermentation is easy, or simple, and I will add there is no reason to try and complicate it with automation.

Yes, I'm sorry- I agree with you katzke that it is a very simple process, and I wouldn't be trying to automate it myself, or at least integrating it into this system. Didn't mean to offend if that's the case, its just that in the design he has done just that- automated it.

I'm not sure though that many brewers would start a batch fermenting without taking a specific gravity measurement (or subsample). The fermentation subsystem as it stands in the design is going to have to run with some fairly generous default duration values (no biggie) but will have no means to detect a stuck ferment or one that fails to start, nor as you point out add dry hops at the right point. But the fermentation sub- system could be kept fairly simple if these limitations are accepted.

However, one other aspect that I should've elaborated upon was the fact that a densimeter, or some other specific gravity- sensing device would be fairly important to the proposed system as it needs a means to monitor mash and boil performance. I'm not aware of any AGers who don't measure specific gravity at least once before pitching, I do it four times usually (first runnings, sparge, pre- boil and post- boil), and I haven't seen anywhere in the proposed design to do it even once. Also, any adjustments for unexpected mash performance or yields are going to be impossible to calculate, while the brewer will have no idea of OG, nor the chance to adjust it before fermentation without some kind of measurement. Try breaking all your hydrometers and refractometers and brewing a batch from go to whoa, I think most of us would struggle or just accept some random results.

 

[katzke]

Yes, I'm sorry- I agree with you katzke that it is a very simple process, and I wouldn't be trying to automate it myself, or at least integrating it into this system. Didn't mean to offend if that's the case, its just that in the design he has done just that- automated it.

However, one other aspect that I should've elaborated upon was the fact that a densimeter, or some other specific gravity- sensing device would be fairly important to the proposed system as it needs a means to monitor mash and boil performance. I'm not aware of any AGers who don't measure specific gravity at least once before pitching, I do it four times usually (first runnings, sparge, pre- boil and post- boil), and I haven't seen anywhere in the proposed design to do it even once. Also, any adjustments for unexpected mash performance or yields are going to be impossible to calculate, while the brewer will have no idea of OG, nor the chance to adjust it before fermentation without some kind of measurement. Try breaking all your hydrometers and refractometers and brewing a batch from go to whoa, I think most of us would struggle or just accept some random results.

No offence taken. Just wanted to make sure it was clear. Funny part about writing things and posting. Sometimes it is perfectly clear when one hits send and then it is hardly readable when one goes back to look.

Totally agree on the last part. Just have not seen a reason to bring it up. Way too many basic flaws to worry about the important stuff like that.

 

[Bandito]

True, I guess there is an inline electronic refractometer available somewhere. Sill prototyping the grain hopper, should finnish timorrow sometime, just about to put it all together, only two more parts to cut.

 

[MHB]

Yes there are, they cost about $4.5K
MHB
Link to OLD thread