Fully Automated Brewing System Design

[Bandito]

I will do some searches later on, but will be looking for one below $500 max. I have a mate doing a phd in optical engineering, he could help me with the automation (also the one showed me the labview program), mabee something that just deflects a laser beam - I do want it to be inline - a 1/2" to 1" barbed connection on each and either a digital or analogue output. The only chemical analysis instruments I have never used are a refractometer and electrophoresis - I missed the last one on purpose because the people that did turn up analysed urine! eeww! I didnt want to be qualified to do that!

 

[andytork]

Check out this site for all types of refractometer

This link is $250 USD, but site has heaps of different ones

https://www.nationalmicroscope.com/digital-...model-p-68.html

Perhaps disassemble and integrate

 

[cooperplace]

This may explain why the manifolds I have drafted reciently were yeast blending manifolds. It always puzzled me - are they just harvesting yeast from batches that have achieved final gravity, or are they constantly circulating the wort to achieve a wort with yeast suspended in it as opposed to having a yeast cake on the bottom for a lager or a trub on the top for an ale. Not sure but reading that link now. Clocked off designing the system for the night...

Bert Grant's book, The Ale Master, has a bit in it on a continuous fermentation plant that he designed.

Your idea is great, fantastic. All of us will learn lessons from it. Ignore the naysayers and do it YOUR way.

Peter.

 

[paulwolf350]

I am also pretty sure you will find that a refractometer will not work on fermented beer, the alcohol screws up the refraction of the light, thats why Rdvjun mentioned the densimeter.

You can use an inline refratometer in your aplication up till the start of fermentation, from then on I use a hyrometer, but for your automated setup you might be able to devise or calculate in a correction factor. Or you might be able to manually take hydrometer readings if your automation doesnt extend past pitching

Sounds like you are making progress on the hopper

 

[cooperplace]

I used to use it on peristatic pumps on chemical analysis instruments when I was studying to be a chemical laboratory technician. Atomic adsorption spectrometers and Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometers both use it. It is more hardy than neoprene. It does go opaque after months of pumping strong acids, but is clear and lasts longer than neoprene. Not sure if silicon is used in peristatic pumps? so not sure if it can handle repeated squashing?



Hi bandito, in a previous job decades ago I worked in a hospital chemistry lab doing blood chemistry tests. We used a machine made by Technicon, and it had hundreds of silicon peristaltic tubes going all the time. They would last about 100-250 hours of operation.


Peter

 

[Bandito]

Well, all I know about refractometers is that they measure sugar content - sugar being like the most refractive solution around - learnt this from my time on orchards where some fruit is picked, juced and the sugar content tested with a refractometer to determine wether the fruit is ready to pick. From what I wave read on AHB over the past year, refractometers also give a density reading - is this correct?

Refractometer or densiometer? for testing before and after fermentation? I have been using a hydrometer only. I realise that temperature is screws the density readings, and I use hydrometer value adjustments based on the temperature of the sample, which I take with a thermocouple.

Thanks Coopersplace, it is encouraging to hear a positive comment. Gives me the motovation to go the extra mile

 

[cooperplace]

JFK had 25 billion dollars (in the sixties) and a massive team of military and private aeronautics specialists. Bridges are built with millions of dollars, and large teams of civil engineers, structural engineers, project managers, concrete specialists, governmental liaisons, even metal detailers. And it's still really really hard. What you are seeking to do is much smaller than a commercial brewery, but not much less complex for it.

Hey LethalCorpse, I've built bridges, it's not that hard.

 

[paulwolf350]

refractometers also give a density reading - is this correct?

Yes totally correct

Refractometer or densiometer? for testing before and after fermentation? I have been using a hydrometer only. I realise that temperature is screws the density readings, and I use hydrometer value adjustments based on the temperature of the sample, which I take with a thermocouple.

yes that is correct for a hydrometer, a refractometer compensates for temperature, but the alcohol in the refractometer sample screws up the readings, it bends the light more than wort. Most refractometers (certainly the ones in your budget) are no good for fermented liquids.

So you will have to -
1: do it manually with a hydrometer
2: buy some other instrument to test the gravity of beer
3: devise/find a correction chart for a refractometer to use with alcohol

what we are talking is a long way down the track for you, you need to design this thing to make wort first

Are you planning to automate all the way to packaging? or just to the pitching of yeast into the wort?

 

[Bandito]

Hi bandito, in a previous job decades ago I worked in a hospital chemistry lab doing blood chemistry tests. We used a machine made by Technicon, and it had hundreds of silicon peristaltic tubes going all the time. They would last about 100-250 hours of operation.
Peter

Hmmm. I did work experiece at Varian Australia, who make AAS, ICP-MS, IR analysers etc. about 12 years ago. I know that they used teflon tubing, but it was too small for what I want it for, I am after something from 1/2" to 1 inch. Someone there said the tubing in the peristatic pumps lasted about 3 months before going opaque (not clear enough to see through - usually because of strong acids - 6+ months if acids were not used - they had autosampler carosels so were used a fair bit.) I have been quite obsessed with teflon since well before then due to its extremely low dielectric properties (Dk=2), and have made some crazy antennas using teflon based fishing line, looked at making microwave circuits using teflon circuit boards. but cost was prohibitive while studying. It seems all uses of teflon apart from frying pans have been made obsolete - perhaps I should give up the eternal search for teflon tubing and get on with my life - silicon is pretty expensive too though - might give it one last go in the next few weeks, and if I cant find teflon tubing after that I end my 12 year search.

One of the advantages if I can find it is because it has such a low dielectric constant, the dielectric constant of the wort will create so much more difference in capacitance - if I use that sampling method.

 

[Bandito]

what we are talking is a long way down the track for you, you need to design this thing to make wort first

Are you planning to automate all the way to packaging? or just to the pitching of yeast into the wort?

Agreeded, but also nice to get a heads up on what seems will either be the hardest part or the most expensive part of the project!

Well, from day one I have planned to extend the clean in process all the way to cleaning the kegs and bottles - but didnt want to freak out people too much! I guess that boat has not sailed so there is probably no harm in saying it now. I have an idea for a linear valve capable of switching between up to a hundred ways one at a time. Kegs will just be flood drain like the bolltes, with a 180 degree rotation in between rinces.

Oh yea, earlier there was some discussion relating to automating the fermentation process - the main point of that is to automate the clean in process. Since I am doing that it doesnt seem any more complex to automate the transfer of wort and beer and yeast. Cleaning the fermenters is the main reason though.

 

[MHB]

PTFE tube

MHB

 

[Bandito]

Holy F'ing crap! you good sir are my hero! If I can order it from somewhere all my supplies will be sourced from you from now on. Is the website up yet? or do I just call?

I think I hear a bulk buy coming on!

At least I know where the $1500 budget for the project saved so far is going to go!

12 years of searching may be over! I am so happy!

 

[LethalCorpse]

Hey LethalCorpse, I've built bridges, it's not that hard.

Really? Did you build it by yourself, because you'd alienated anyone who might have been able to help you? Were your only prior qualifications that you knew how to draw, and had walked on a few bridges in your time?

 

[Bandito]

By built I mean modeling the existing structure from the as built design drawings and surveys, then modeling the steel fabricated beams, cleats for formwork, bracing, studs to grip onto the concrete topping. Everything was curved with wierd radiuses, and identifying many issues before it was built that the engineers resolved that would otherwise might have caused it not to fit. It was checked by a fellow worker who's job is to check my work. And in terms of experience I have 8 years, 5 months, 5 days experience of doing about half/half easier and harder projects than this. So your point is I need experience hey? Well the first projext I did on my own was one of my hardest, and I started it not knowing or having ever seen a winding roof, but I jumped in the deep end, got awarded the project by a steel fabricator(partly because it didnt scare me, and partly because everyone else wasscared of it), and with a hell of a lot of hard work and long hours, Ifigured out how a winding roof is constructed. I finnished it sucessfully - didnt make any money, but it went up without a hitch. Now a winding roof is one of the hardest things to model and detail, but I did it sucessfully because I knew I could I do it if I tried. At the end of it I splept for a week pretty much, actually, it was two weeks of sleep after two weeks of 90 hours a week, but that was because I tried so hard - thats the only limit on anyone - anyone can do anything! its just a matter of how hard they are willing to try.

Quote "And god gave unto every man, every power for him to use"

 

[paulwolf350]

more brewery talk and less bridges talk

 

[Bandito]

Agreed.

Spose it's time for a summary of the progress. The big thing I am excited about is getting teflon tubing. it may cost a heap for a huge realm but I believe it is worth whatever it costs. I should have enoughto buy a real so I suppose I need to get to work on what size to get. Well, that is largly determined by the peristatic pump and the valve sizes. So although I havent searched for peristatic pumps in 5 years, I might ask, do they go upto 1/2 inch or even 1 inch? or do I have to make a peristatic pump myself? (I actually decided to get into drafting while trying to design a peristatic pump!) I know how they work, and can do it but it is a lot of work - mounting bearings and what have you.

I will still finish the grain hopper tomorrow- mabee not now though.

Edit: Oh no.....Oh bloody nooo... hmmm, so I guess I am making a custom peristatic pump hey. Oh, well, this is going to be fun, but very hard, very hard indeed. Are there any home made peristatic pumps around that youz know of? I am almost considering modeling up a design and getting it printed with a 3d printer - its a printer that puts down a layer of plastic powder then heats it only in places where it is required to be hard. I have had a couple of soap prototypes 3d printed for my dad that makes natural soap. A bit expensive, but hey, just model it in inventor or solidworks, export it, and a few days later you have a plastic model!

 

[cooperplace]

Really? Did you build it by yourself, because you'd alienated anyone who might have been able to help you? Were your only prior qualifications that you knew how to draw, and had walked on a few bridges in your time?

As we both know there's design, costing, planning, surveying, approvals, engineering, tenders, contracts, procurement, supervision, commissioning, traffic management, waste disposal, safety on site, signage, etc, etc, etc, etc as well as all the other bits and pieces like dealing with the local council, 27 or so government departments, the neighbours and the local newspaper. As Barry Gibb said of songwriting, you just do it. Personally I think songwriting would be _much_ harder: I could never do that, I wouldn't have a clue.

Why are you aggressive to me? I think if someone wants to have a crack at automating their brewery, that's great. No doubt they will learn lots and so will the rest of us if they pass it on. I don't see this as being something that polarizes the homebrew forum.

 

[Bandito]

As we both know there's design, costing, planning, surveying, approvals, engineering, tenders, contracts, procurement, supervision, commissioning, traffic management, waste disposal, safety on site, signage

And brewing!

Great post!

 

[LethalCorpse]

As we both know there's design, costing, planning, surveying, approvals, engineering, tenders, contracts, procurement, supervision, commissioning, traffic management, waste disposal, safety on site, signage, etc, etc, etc, etc as well as all the other bits and pieces like dealing with the local council, 27 or so government departments, the neighbours and the local newspaper.

Yes, my point precisely. Not exactly a job for a one-man band, without any experience, training, or budget, is it? Neither is building a fully automated brewery.

 

[Bandito]

Nope, already said it.