Fully Automated Brewing System Design

[Batz]

Seems a simple enough project to me.

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Batz

 

[NickB]

Indeed Batz, can't see why it's not finished and pumping out mini batches by now...

 

[domonsura]

Can't be bothered reading through (insert number of pages) of criticism - I've already read more than enough nay saying in the first couple of pages and it seems to get worse as it goes on....will some of you guys never learn?

I say FUCKEM! Bandito, If it makes you happy and you are enjoying slowly working/learning your way towards a finish line - keep doing it. If there is anything that I can help with in terms of fiddly little stainless bits made to fit - please let me know I would be very happy to help.

It's not always about the destination guys, sometimes it's about who you meet and what you learn along the way. Over the last few years I have watched a number of you others re-invent the wheel with mixed success at times, and at times there have been some 'brewing rules' dis-proved as well. That's how progress and new discoveries are made. Isn't that part of what this site is about? This guy clearly has some skills and a heap of motivation, - if you have something positive to contribute or a way to save him some $$ or effort, speak up otherwise please STFU - Otherwise he might just decide to keep it to himself and we'd all be a little poorer for it .........

LC!!!!
"Yes, my point precisely. Not exactly a job for a one-man band, without any experience, training, or budget, is it? Neither is building a fully automated brewery."

WTF man? Of course it's a job for a one man band! Unless you have a team of people ready to help him? Cmon man, take a positive pill or something......

 

[manticle]

Can't be bothered reading through (insert number of pages) of criticism - I've already read more than enough nay saying in the first couple of pages and it seems to get worse as it goes on....will some of you guys never learn?

I say FUCKEM! Bandito, If it makes you happy and you are enjoying slowly working/learning your way towards a finish line - keep doing it. If there is anything that I can help with in terms of fiddly little stainless bits made to fit - please let me know I would be very happy to help.

There's actually a lot of supportive posts, suggestions and ideas in the first 6 or so pages and very little naysaying just for the sake of it.

If he can pull this off then I think it's great - no harm in evaluating and re-evaluating based on others' experience and knowledge. I think the main suggestion so far has been to familiarise himself better with brewing processes which will help make this project more feasible.

 

[domonsura]

There's actually a lot of supportive posts, suggestions and ideas in the first 6 or so pages and very little naysaying just for the sake of it.

If he can pull this off then I think it's great - no harm in evaluating and re-evaluating based on others' experience and knowledge. I think the main suggestion so far has been to familiarise himself better with brewing processes which will help make this project more feasible.

:lol: 'in the first six pages'....
OK...fair enough, but the bickering and shit starts later on anyway regardless.......

I'm really interested in seeing the process he goes through, hopefully to completion. It is a huge task yes, but it doesn't sound to me like he doesn't understand this, nor does it sound like he is short of resources (clever friends to drag into the project if required). Enough sidetracking though.
Speaking of mammoth tasks, what's happening with Jonathon's brewery too? Bandito, you'd probably better watch his thread with some interest, he's a man on a mission like yourself.....put you two in a workshop with internet access and god knows what you'd come up with......:lol:

 

[manticle]

I think a couple of people who started with the best intentions took exception to being told to lick his balls.

Anyway, bickering aside (which there's already enough of on the internet) I'm interested to see how it progresses. Even if it doesn't come to fruition there'll be something good to come out of it no doubt.

And bandito - my reference to Doctors was a joke only. I realised what you meant and was gently taking the piss (although a teflon surgery does sound pretty cool).

 

[domonsura]

I think a couple of people who started with the best intentions took exception to being told to lick his balls.

BAHAAHAAHAA...:lol:...didn't see that bit. :lol:...doesn't really change my opinion though. That just shows he might survive this board after all....

 

[katzke]

It is a huge task yes, but it doesn't sound to me like he doesn't understand this, nor does it sound like he is short of resources (clever friends to drag into the project if required). Enough sidetracking though.

I guess you need to read more of the posts. He admits he does not know much about brewing or the terms or how the equipment is used.

Look at the results of his hopper design. He says the solution to the problem of binding is to make it looser so the small grains can pass by the cylinder. I have never seen a cylinder measure that used that approach. They all tighten it up and use hard materials to cut the offending material. Plus I see no way to accurately measure the grain with his one-size fits all method.

He ignores suggestion by people that know more and have made the same mistakes he is making and says to get lost. I will leave the dog hygiene out of the conversation.

I have stopped offering suggestions and help because he admits he wants us to design his system for him, yet ignores any suggestions of how to do it. I only read it to see how bad he is doing. Kind of why I watch races, to see the wrecks. I also watch to see good technical racing and passing action. But when that does not happen the wrecks are the interest. If he starts to take advice and shows progress then I will make constructive comments.

At this time I see it as a great economic opportunity for many people. He has spent 600 bucks for tubing that is not needed. I can see this project going way over budget and ending in disaster unless he starts to listen to other that have gone down the path. Many are half way there and if he listened I am sure he could get most if not all of the rest of the way there. He just insists on doing it his way with little or no knowledge of what he is doing.

It is kind of like if you thought you could make a better light bulb and had no more experience then turning on a light and drafting. Would you make a better bulb in less tries then Edison? Would you look at what all the others did and re-evaluate what they did, through out the sure losers, make changes to some of their failures to have a decent chance at completing the task?

What I am saying s just because someone failed does not say it can not be done. But at least look at the failure to see if there are any possibilities.

He has it in his head that with almost no brewing experience he can make a totally automated brewing system. All while tossing out any suggestions of how to do it just because he thinks he knows it can be done and he is the one to do it.

 

[MHB]

There are some pretty cool automated brewing systems out there, have a look at this one from Siemens (if you got a couple of hundred K you just dont need).

I suppose my question is - if automation is all that good why do they still need brewers?

MHB

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

I think a couple of people who started with the best intentions took exception to being told to lick his balls.

BAHAAHAAHAA... :lol: ...didn't see that bit. :lol: ...doesn't really change my opinion though. That just shows he might survive this board after all....

I just think it's funny that so many people have lost their sense of humor. When I read the post from Bandito about how all the naysayers and how they can 'lick my balls' I was LOL'ing, PMSL'ing and ROFL'ing (and any other stupid acronyms for laughing)

Well all I can say Bandito is keep at it mate show some these guys that sometimes these things can be done. FFS if they can put a man on the moon in the sixties surely we can automatically brew beer in 2010's (not sure what these years are called, the teenies?). In my opinion anything can be with time, money and persistance.

Good luck mate I'll be watching this thread.

Cheers
Farside.

 

[yardy]

Can't be bothered reading through (insert number of pages) of criticism - I've already read more than enough nay saying in the first couple of pages and it seems to get worse as it goes on....will some of you guys never learn?

I say FUCKEM! Bandito, If it makes you happy and you are enjoying slowly working/learning your way towards a finish line - keep doing it. If there is anything that I can help with in terms of fiddly little stainless bits made to fit - please let me know I would be very happy to help.

It's not always about the destination guys, sometimes it's about who you meet and what you learn along the way. Over the last few years I have watched a number of you others re-invent the wheel with mixed success at times, and at times there have been some 'brewing rules' dis-proved as well. That's how progress and new discoveries are made. Isn't that part of what this site is about? This guy clearly has some skills and a heap of motivation, - if you have something positive to contribute or a way to save him some $$ or effort, speak up otherwise please STFU - Otherwise he might just decide to keep it to himself and we'd all be a little poorer for it .........

LC!!!!
"Yes, my point precisely. Not exactly a job for a one-man band, without any experience, training, or budget, is it? Neither is building a fully automated brewery."

WTF man? Of course it's a job for a one man band! Unless you have a team of people ready to help him? Cmon man, take a positive pill or something......

without getting into a blue over a bloke that at the start of his project, didn't know what a Kettle was, you really should read the entire thread before you start slinging, quite a few of us did throw some constructive criticism around without telling him straight out that he may be in over his head, this bloke clearly has no idea and no respect for others members of the forum who are trying to help, check his sig ffs.


Dave

 

[domonsura]

OK. Clearly my sense of humour is also misunderstood as well.....no suprises there either. I'm not trying to start a blue over it either, so I have bothered to read more. Now I am poorer for having read through another AHB shitfight regardless of who called who what. And what a surprise to see that some people were told to lick his balls, and the posts that prompted such a response from him....(no surprise at all)

I also wasn't alluding to his brewing skills or experience...because when it comes to thinking outside the square for solutions sometimes it pays not to have any that might pre-dispose you to thinking that only one way works. (When I started making my first AG brewery I had done precisely 2 partial brews)

I'm just horrified by some of the posts made by people who are clearly laying into this guy far harder than is necessary....Big Fridge, Katzke, LethalCorpse and to some degree Komodo (although I can see what you were trying to say, I don't think any of you really needed to be quite so blunt about it).......I know very well that in your fields, some of you have a level of expertise that is admirable - and yes, your brewing experience in some cases is up there too. But there's some serious and completely irrelevant bignoting going on there as well, and apart from the heinous crime of not knowing everything and having all the answers straight away to keep you all happy, this guy (up till page 9)has said nothing I've seen to deserve the totally fkn out of line comments that are being directed at him - unless that is the people making them know him very well personally, have read his CV, worked with him and can with absolute certainty state that he has 'NFI' as one put it, or that he doesn't have the ability to do it. How the hell would any of you know? And for the record...it did take him 9 whole pages to tell people to 'lick his balls' and in this particular case at that point in the posts - I think some of you deserved it. (Not you Yardy ) Up till then I think he copped it all on the chin and said SFA. Right about the point some of you started stooping to insulting him personally - he gave it back. The people he was referring to need to deal with it, or keep their thoughts to themselves...he might not finish it....but it certainly won't be because you lot apathetically told him to 'give up now'.

- to quote Spazhead in post 210...."Me, I think that maybe, just maybe something will get invented that might help others in their brewing. This is a forum isnt it for sharing information not pessimism. If you have somethig negative to say, say it once. Dont continue to say it. Im sure he heard it.

Im sure I read somewhere that BIAB wouldnt work. "

And now having read through the whole %^$&^$& thread and well aware of what everyone has said, I stand by my original post......the only thing that has changed has been my opinion of a couple of the other posters.....

 

[Bandito]

Well, inspired by Zwickels other thread, I spent the afternoon googling, and found that my grain hopper design is called a rotary valve. All I can find are metal ones and way too big. then it dawned on me that there must be some general use product available - automatic pet feeders! So something like this will be used for the grain measurement. http://uniquedistributors.com/autopetfeeders.html

It also seems my crushed tube design is called a pinch valve, like this http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/020/20950.jpg
Just need to find one with a motor.

It is nice to know that the designs I came up with actually exist.

 

[manticle]

Did you check the link MHB posted? There's a downloadable pdf in the braumat compact section which contains diagrams and schematics. Obviously it's someone else's design and the costs will be above and beyond your intended outlay but there might be some ideas/inspiration in there.

 

[Bandito]

Thanks for reminding me, it is time to go and look at the links that have been posted. As MHB said, I do like to go in blind without knowing what others have done - I find it makes for more original designs. Often I come up with the same design as others, but sometimes it produces something completely original.

 

[suchidog]

any help?

http://www.homebrew.com.sg/products/Brumas-brochure.pdf

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

OK. Clearly my sense of humour is also misunderstood as well.....no suprises there either. I'm not trying to start a blue over it either, so I have bothered to read more. Now I am poorer for having read through another AHB shitfight regardless of who called who what. And what a surprise to see that some people were told to lick his balls, and the posts that prompted such a response from him....(no surprise at all)

I also wasn't alluding to his brewing skills or experience...because when it comes to thinking outside the square for solutions sometimes it pays not to have any that might pre-dispose you to thinking that only one way works. (When I started making my first AG brewery I had done precisely 2 partial brews)

I'm just horrified by some of the posts made by people who are clearly laying into this guy far harder than is necessary....Big Fridge, Katzke, LethalCorpse and to some degree Komodo (although I can see what you were trying to say, I don't think any of you really needed to be quite so blunt about it).......I know very well that in your fields, some of you have a level of expertise that is admirable - and yes, your brewing experience in some cases is up there too. But there's some serious and completely irrelevant bignoting going on there as well, and apart from the heinous crime of not knowing everything and having all the answers straight away to keep you all happy, this guy (up till page 9)has said nothing I've seen to deserve the totally fkn out of line comments that are being directed at him - unless that is the people making them know him very well personally, have read his CV, worked with him and can with absolute certainty state that he has 'NFI' as one put it, or that he doesn't have the ability to do it. How the hell would any of you know? And for the record...it did take him 9 whole pages to tell people to 'lick his balls' and in this particular case at that point in the posts - I think some of you deserved it. (Not you Yardy ) Up till then I think he copped it all on the chin and said SFA. Right about the point some of you started stooping to insulting him personally - he gave it back. The people he was referring to need to deal with it, or keep their thoughts to themselves...he might not finish it....but it certainly won't be because you lot apathetically told him to 'give up now'.

- to quote Spazhead in post 210...."Me, I think that maybe, just maybe something will get invented that might help others in their brewing. This is a forum isnt it for sharing information not pessimism. If you have somethig negative to say, say it once. Dont continue to say it. Im sure he heard it.

Im sure I read somewhere that BIAB wouldnt work. "

And now having read through the whole %^$&^$& thread and well aware of what everyone has said, I stand by my original post......the only thing that has changed has been my opinion of a couple of the other posters.....

Dom,

Well spoken, if you aren't careful you will soon fall into the Pistol Patch category of 150 words or less and may be moderated. Yes let the guy / gal go. If it all works out the silence will most likely be deafening. If he/she fails............................... well look the f**k out. I will follow with interest.

BYB

 

[bill_gill85]

Slightly OT,

Isn't a Braumeister pretty much considered automated? The only things missing from a Braumiester is CIP, an automated drain to fermentor, automated malt removal & sparge & hop additions.

Back on topic;

Process wise, does the grain have to be mixed & milled internal to the process? Currently, I order my grains locally & the HBS prefers to mill the recipe rather than mill the specialty grains separately. I know that you have separate hoppers that mix prior to milling, but if you could remove the need to mill or mix grain, the process could be simplified significantly.

As far as cleaning the mash tun, I believe that a tipping tun seems to be the most popular for most people with a fixed brewstand.

The current concerns I'd like to see addressed are;

1) Control cabinet sizing & location
2) Consideration of CIP issues, ie, do you plan on housing the whole contraption in a cabinet such as to contain any spray?

I know that until control gear is specified, it can be difficult to allow space for the required SSR's PLC's etc, but even for a simple system the control cabinets can take up a large amount of space.
All breweries that I have seen have floor drains in the brewing area to simplify the washdown process. The difficulties of replicating this in a residential location will necessitate a different approach.


The best system I have seen for the removal of grain that would be practical in a home setting is that of the Braumeister system I mentioned above. There are videos on youtube showing the brewing process with the braumeister.

Do you plan on doing the fabrication yourself? How familiar are you with sanitary welding? The last thing you want is a shiny column of stainless steel that looks like a brewery, but turns out to be a bacteria culturing machine.

I'd echo the same sentiments as most of implementing the project in stages, even if only so that you can fault find infections easier, but I know that you've convinced yourself to do it all at once.

I'm definately looking forward to the final result & I'll be envious if you manage to pull it off!

 

[Bandito]

any help?

http://www.homebrew.com.sg/products/Brumas-brochure.pdf

Could be a nice starting point, but not automated enough quite expensive too, there goes the budget.

Found a specific pinch valve but the price for 1/4" OD and 3/16" ID is US$84 quite a bit more pricy than I was hoping, add a feedback sensor and its US$135, and the larger size that I want would be way more, but they are magnificent. Will keep looking for cheaper versions. Might have to call a few suppliers and ask for advice on where to get cheaper ones.

https://www.biochemfluidics.com/cart/store/...?idCategory=250

I am toying with the idea of the MLT having a full sized valve on the bottom - as in a 300mm valve on the bottom of a 300mm tun. The the flase bottom being a butterfly valve. Still bit issues with space there, but if that doesnt get rid of the spent grist nothing will. Still looking at the traditional tilting method though.

My LHBS only has 3 year old cracked grain. I would like seperate automatic pet feeders to allow the pc to decide the recipe. Of course if I go batches with more complex grain bills, I would probably mix some of the specialities together in one of them.

I have a drain in the middle of the floor. The whole contraption will be enclosed somewhat and have a frame holding everything together, with a bund at the very bottom of it draining into the floor drain - that looks like the main drainage method, pumping up into the sink would only be required if there was no floor drain - an option though.

Will have a look at the utube video.

Doubt I will be welding stainless fittings myself.

 

[roger mellie]

There are some pretty cool automated brewing systems out there, have a look at this one from Siemens (if you got a couple of hundred K you just dont need).

I suppose my question is - if automation is all that good why do they still need brewers?

MHB

Gotten Himmel

Siemens PCS7 - for a small - read really small system - the licence for the engineering station alone is circa AUD 40K.

To quote a very learned friend who (like me) works on these systems for a living. Excuse my french.

"Siemens PCS7 - It must ******* Die along with the engineers that wrote it and the Sales People that Sell it"

RM

(secretly looking forward to buying a Semi Automated brewing system of American origin h34r: h34r: h34r: )