Fully Automated Brewing System Design

[Thirsty Boy]

You know, when I first saw the term BIAB - brew in a bag, I thought it meant fermenting in a bag. I just Started searching for conical fermenters and remembered the initial thought - perhaps bags that could be used for fermenters, and yes, they are the teflon kind. Found some standard style square ones for US$20 to US$55 (the modified PTFE liners are US$13 to US32) for 20 litre and 220 litre respectively. At the moment this is just a pie in the sky thought, as I would want to either fit nicely into a conical container, or have an outlet at one lower corner and hang it in the fridge.

http://www.fluorolab.com/teflonpfadrumliners.aspx
http://www.fluorolab.com/teflonpfapailliners.aspx
So question is: does anyone ferment in a bag? - thought I saw something once, but is hard to find with all the biab stuff around.

You mean something like this??

Proof of concept



A more refined design



An alternative that is easier to make, does all the same stuff... but isn't as pretty or "conical" as the other design.



Constructed from oxyproof bags that previously contained hop pellets... I'm working on a cheaper easier to make design that could be torn off a roll and used as a "one time" fermenter. These ones are cut out by hand and plastic welded on my vacuum sealer.... time consuming and sporadically leaky. But its got pretty much all the features of a metal conical fermenter.. except you hang it off a rail and toss it out when you are done.

I claim this idea as mine... so there Anybody who commercializes it and makes a million bucks - you owe me a slab of damn good beer at least.

TB

 

[domonsura]

You mean something like this??

Proof of concept

View attachment 35478 View attachment 35477

A more refined design

View attachment 35479

An alternative that is easier to make, does all the same stuff... but isn't as pretty or "conical" as the other design.

View attachment 35480

Constructed from oxyproof bags that previously contained hop pellets... I'm working on a cheaper easier to make design that could be torn off a roll and used as a "one time" fermenter. These ones are cut out by hand and plastic welded on my vacuum sealer.... time consuming and sporadically leaky. But its got pretty much all the features of a metal conical fermenter.. except you hang it off a rail and toss it out when you are done.

I claim this idea as mine... so there Anybody who commercializes it and makes a million bucks - you owe me a slab of damn good beer at least.

TB

Nice idea thirsty...very nice! cleaning fermenters...a thing of the past soon perhaps?

 

[MHB]

Sorry TB not a new idea, remember the first home brew commercially available in Australia was Coopers, in a plastic bag, that was the fermenter as well as the shipping container.
Ive got some 20L bladders, like big wine bladders that we have tried fermenting in.
The problem is that to get a production run made of a custom bag, you have to order 10,000 of the suckers, at around $3-4 each.
MHB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Sorry TB not a new idea, remember the first home brew commercially available in Australia was Coopers, in a plastic bag, that was the fermenter as well as the shipping container.
Ive got some 20L bladders, like big wine bladders that we have tried fermenting in.
The problem is that to get a production run made of a custom bag, you have to order 10,000 of the suckers, at around $3-4 each.
MHB

ahh - but were they shiny and conical?? Just a bag to ferment in isn't the idea, there's quite a few wine fermenting bags out there - boring!! - what you want is a bag that does all the stuff that a great big expensive cylindro conical does.

I know about the issues with commercialization.. I did kind of look into it. Wouldn't be too hard to rig up a plastic welding "jig" to knock em out in a few minutes a piece though. Section of wide plastic tube (or two sheets) goes in... conical bag fermenter comes out. I couldn't be arsed but I dont think it would bee too hard.

Anyway... should stop diverting this thread. Sorry.

 

[Bandito]

Yes, they might exist - but not in automated breweries.

I pleaded with you to read a professional brewing book as all the design process has been done for you. They do not use 'pet feeders' in breweries, but they do use a tipping skip ie a bin that fills with a known amount of grain and then tips the grain into the crusher. Count the number of tips and you know what grain you have measured out. No physical contact means nothing to bind or get caught. You could adapt this to use a water wheel type device.

There, I guess that I have just designed your grain control system for you.

One of my first thoughts about the grain measuring was to use a bucket elevator - I'm guessing thats what you are describing, but I discounted it due to the large space it would require and the high mechanical engineering it would require. I am only making a small automated brewery - I think a small automatic pet food dispenser will be perfect for the scale and cost I am after.

I am aware that pinch valves are not used in brewerys - I think it is because flexible tube doesnt work in them above 2" diameter, above that size they have flange fittings and the internal valve is mabe of flexible elastomer which comes in direct contact with the fluid - the large ones are usually used for sewridge and water treatment plants where the fluids can contain large amounts of solids that would block other valves. The small ones are used, um, not sure where - in my brewery? yea, thats it!

There are pumps that have a check valve on each side of a pinch pump - both check valves are pointed in the same direction. The pinch valve closing compresses the fluid forcing it out one check valve, then when the pinch valve opens it draws in fluid from the other check valve - thinking of using one as a dosing pump for the cleaning chemicals. Large versions of this are used to pump sewridge :icon_vomit:


Nice custom bag Thirsty boy! Thats sort of it, but with fittings for a tube in the bottom and top.


I am still on the fence as to wether 1/4" Outside diameter & 4.7mm (3/16") Inside Diameter tube is too small for the wort side of the system. The overflow tubes which will be used for cleaning will be 1/2" OD & 3/8" ID to allow for passing stray grains, twigs, hops, roaches etc. Think I may have caused some confusion earlier where I mentioned the wrong ID of the smaller tubing.

Speaking of which, should arrive next week, then I will send a sample off the the US to have the valves customised - big weekend ahead going into the weekend after finalising the valve specifics!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Nice custom bag Thirsty boy! Thats sort of it, but with fittings for a tube in the bottom and to

If you look at the design closely you will see you dont need fittings. There is a vent/input at the top. You fill through there by poking in a hose and jam a nice standard bung with an airlock in there to seal.

The bottom needs no fitting, it is sealed closed and remains so until you want to drop the yeast. Pinch closed with fingers, snip end off with scissors, control flow with the simplest sort of pinch valve -- fingers. When the yeast has been removed you just roll the end up and close it with a little clip. I used a clothes peg and you can see it working in the last photo.

Its a design thing - fittings mean expense, lack of flat packing, a need to open the fermenter and fiddle with it etc etc. No fittings means it is simple and able to be easily cleaned and sanitised. And easy to clean and sanitise is pretty much the most important thing to consider in the design of anything in a brewery.

Gotta read those brewing texts... plant design is massive for proper cleaning. Pipe diameter, fluid velocity, vortex and turbulence patterns. Not too vital in a normal HB setting... but if you are truly looking for automation that stuff will become important.

You seen those water features in peoples gardens -- a chunk of bamboo pipe on a pivot that fills up with water then overbalances and tips itself out.... repeat. Think about a version of that for your grain measurement. Thats more what Bigfridge was talking about. You count the number of times it tips, you know how much tips out each time and you get your weight measurement. And leave out grain elevators altogether if you can...go with gravity. Grain elevators (especially damn bucket elevators) are a pain in the arse.

look at this page - substitute a stream of grain for the stream of water and add a little jigger to count the tips and turn off your grain flow - Bob's your mothers brother. Or a lot of breweries just use a time of flow. Silo opens for x seconds per unit of weight. Not particularly accurate, but not too bad either.

Basically you need to start with a grain silo at the top of the stairs and work your way down in a tower. Silo (or silos if you plan to use more than one type of grain), Weigher, Graincase, Mill, Grist case, Masher, Mash tun.

 

[RdeVjun]

You seen those water features in peoples gardens -- a chunk of bamboo pipe on a pivot that fills up with water then overbalances and tips itself out.... repeat. Think about a version of that for your grain measurement. Thats more what Bigfridge was talking about. You count the number of times it tips, you know how much tips out each time and you get your weight measurement. And leave out grain elevators altogether if you can...go with gravity. Grain elevators (especially damn bucket elevators) are a pain in the arse.

look at this page - substitute a stream of grain for the stream of water and add a little jigger to count the tips and turn off your grain flow - Bob's your mothers brother.

Bugger me Thirsty Boy, that's what I know as a Tipping Bucket, although was there supposed to be a link in there? Anyway, most of the world's rainfall measurements are actually made with a Pluviometer which is a small version, we use large versions for surfacewater hydrology but most pictures of them are behind subscriptions, they're just a much bigger pluvio though.
Simple to sense, just a proximity or reed switch and most dataloggers and interfaces can handle switch closure or pulse inputs, their calibration is reasonably stable at low rates, say <20 tips/ minute but the manifold can have a serious impact on performance with fluids (no citation, personal experience). I only use them in pluvios nowadays, but I have seen some enormous ones up to 1.8m along the axis. I had no idea they would be useful for solids though, only ever used them for fluids!

 

[yardy]

Basically you need to start with a grain silo at the top of the stairs and work your way down in a tower. Silo (or silos if you plan to use more than one type of grain), Weigher, Graincase, Mill, Grist case, Masher, Mash tun.

:lol:

 

[rwmingis]

I am still on the fence as to wether 1/4" Outside diameter & 4.7mm (3/16") Inside Diameter tube is too small for the wort side of the system. The overflow tubes which will be used for cleaning will be 1/2" OD & 3/8" ID to allow for passing stray grains, twigs, hops, roaches etc. Think I may have caused some confusion earlier where I mentioned the wrong ID of the smaller tubing.

Back in this now...

Bandito, you might want to use bigger tubing if possible, the 4.7mm ID hose will give you a lot of back pressure. The graph below gives you the friction head of 1m of 4.7mm ID tubing at 60C for various flow rates. In this case, using 1m of tubing at 7L/min, you'd have 10m of head or 15psi. To get the value for 3m of tubing just multiply the friction head from the graph by 3, so 30m of head or 45psi. You'll need a decent pump if you using more than a meter of tubing, and that's before you start adding valves, elbows, and fittings...

The flow rate is in L/min

 

[Bandito]

Thanks thaps bob! I'm currently redoing the pfd - I have temporarily deleted all but one fermenter, and using gravity and now head height of pipes to try an eliminate as many valves as possible. I am planning on using the concept you have shown in the graph to make use of gravity valves - make the head height high enough and the inside diameter small enough, and you have effectively created two valves out of one (one being a machanical valve that will take all the fluid when open, then the gravity valve takes the rest when it is closed. In the zone atm so gotta go.

Oh, by gravity valve I mean say you are pumping into a T piece, one outlet is connected to a valve to control the flow, but the other outlet is perhaps a much smaller inside diameter and goes up mabee 1 meter before turning 180 degrees and going back down - thus, the head height limitation is used for good rather than evil!

Of course, the same could be possible in the reverse - increase the diameter enough and the weight of the fluid in the vertical section of the gravity valve will overwhelm the open normal valve and thus will come to equilibrium when open before fluid passes through the gravity valve threshhold.

Oh, and the gravity valve term I just made up - not sure if it exists or not for real.

 

[Bandito]

Attached is a snapshot of a work in progress - still working on it, and will be for a while.

I have color coded tube specifications as well as linewights - so they are readable when printed - the legend is on the left of the page.

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_K.pdf

 

[Bandito]

So I dont loose my concept I will post it here:

Gravity considerations:
HLT above MLT
Hermes above MLT
Kettle below MLT
Chiller below kettle
fermenters below chiller
..............................dont think my ceilings are high enough!

See attached pdf. Only just started looking at the fridge side - still a work in progress.....

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_L.pdf

 

[zagadka]

Just some thoughts...

Are you thinking something like this pill dispenser system upside down for hops?

Pre-measured increments per division eg 1 gram or recipe specific increments per division?

One carousel for each hop type or premix per division?

Wouldn't you want much more than "30 degrees min" incline on the grain chute?

Might be an idea to collect the hot water out of your heat exchanger in a vat to cycle through for cleaning...

Have you seen powered soap dispensers in some laundries? - Sliding block under a chute with a cavity in it, goes under the chute, fills, dispenses a fixed amount (the cavity) out the other side... Might work for your powdered cleaners.


Been watching this thread for a bit now - going to be interesting to watch it develop!

 

[Bandito]

I think the design is now half decent :beerbang: Pretty damn happy with it for the most part - still working out the airation system. Roughly modeled the parts in cad, the length of tube is currently 7.2m.

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_M.pdf

 

[Bandito]

Simplified even more - now at 4 or 5 pinch valves plus 5 other valves, 1 peristatic pump and one dosing pump. Removed HERMS. Kettle is now gravity fed by the MLT which allows it to be closer to the ground. Added in dosing pump for starsan. And added a mains pressure sprinkler thingy for cleaning. The MLT is currently drawn with two butterfly valves in the bottom of it, the lower one is watertight, the upper one either has holes drilled in it, or the middle of the plates cut out and a flase bottom mesh welded in.

The idea is that the system does 3 consecutive 20L batchs to make up the 60L ferment size. With the amount of yeast that will produce, manual yeast harvesting is acceptable. Manual yeast pitching is also acceptable, as is airation. To airate will require a very strong pump with a sanitry filter on the outlet, the main beer out line is used as the air in line - big bubbles will form and may not do much, so will keep thinking about this.

TimD: yep, very much like that, adding hops in incerments of say 5 or 10gm, 1 carosel per hop type.
Will have to test the required angle of the grain and hop chutes.
Capturing the hot water would be nice, but doubt I have the space to.
Hmmm, I was googling some powdered soap diapensers for laundries today, wasnt sure how they worked, thanks.

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_P.pdf

 

[zagadka]

OK here you go Bandito here's a quick mock-up for you - This is what I mean...




Picture yourself standing at the double ended green arrow. You push the plunger in, the cavity fillls from the chute. You pull the plunger toward you, it dispenses out the bottom...

Although probably not accurate enough, you could do the same for hops and grain measurement...

 

[Bandito]

Wow thats cool! will have to research the availability of those too! Thanks TimD

I've been searching for those medication dispensers, so far cheapest is AU$150 http://www.tabtimer.com.au/epages/tata4926...-e-lert'%22 Other models are $270.

Will keep searching for cheaper, but I think it is perfect for the hops! Will have to get one soon and pull it apart to make sure the motor isnt a stepper motor and it can be controlled easily by the pc. Will save heaps of time. The manual says it wont increment to the next opening when upside down, but it would probably need to be on an angle to fit in the peltier car fridge anyway, and that will probably be on an angle so the pellets fall to one corner - where a soleniod actuated plastic flap with fridge seals will open, the pellets fall onto a slide and then freefall into the kettle - sounds fun!

Also found some cheap dosing pumps for aquariums. If they are cheap and usable, I'm hoping that the caustic or nappisan cleaning powder can just be dissolved in hot water and one of the cheap dosing pumps used. But I dont really want liquid caustic containers above my head when I'm tinkering.

 

[LethalCorpse]

manual yeast harvesting is acceptable. Manual yeast pitching is also acceptable, as is airation.

Is this a fully automated brewery, or not? If it's not, why is each particular stage automated or not?

 

[Bandito]

Taking things out and stripping it back to the bare minimum to the point where it hurts is part of the simplification process. This will be followed by a complification process, then another simplification, then another complification, then the final simplification which will be the final design.The yeast harvested should be enough for multiple pitches, so manually harvesting it will allow it to be washed and split up into pitchable amounts. Thus the pitching would also be suitable for being manual. Automating that would require an autosampling robot.

 

[zagadka]

I've been searching for those medication dispensers, so far cheapest is AU$150 http://www.tabtimer.com.au/epages/tata4926...-e-lert'%22 Other models are $270.

You don't need that crap - just the concept. Think the same as the soap dispenser but circular and without a top. Multiple cavities around the circumference. I'll draw one for you tonight if I have time. That will also be much lower profile than the pill dispensers.

You probably _do_ want a stepper motor - a stepper controller kit for a PC is a piece of piss to knock up. You can even buy a pre-assembled tested kit these days. If you want to get real ambitious you could just use a micro controller that will take a pulse in and rotate the tray one division if you were going the PLC route. Your alternative I guess is limit switching or hall effect sensors with a fixed magnet motor...