Fully Automated Brewing System Design

[Margwar]

Good luck Bandito.
Looks like a massive undertaking, and I hope that going straight to the deep end pays off for you.
Thats OK though, we all have our own ideas and in the end we all produce wonderful beers in our own style.
This is what makes homebrewing so much fun.
Myself being a bit of a geek and over the next few years would like to get a HERMS going, using temp controllers and the like. But in the mean time I want to perfect my AG style using the wealth of knowledge from these forums. Once I have that down pat I will introduce more complex processes to my brewery. I prefer a slow and steady approach and think that in the end I will produce a better end product by gaining knowledge and expierence along the way from my fellow brewers.
Cheers and good luck, I will be following your progress keenly!
Dietz

 

[leiothrix]

Also for components have a look at futurlec.

Price for 40A is USD17.90, which is better than some of the ones on ebay. And certainly better than Jaycar.

Rob.

 

[Bandito]

you have a lid on the kettle?

AFAIK The idea is to boil off the nasties, so they are carried away with the steam. With a lid on you will introduce these unwanted volatiles back into your wort.


Paul

Okay, so the mortorised valve will be mounted to a plate which will be positioned above and seperate from the kettle, it will be angled at 45 degrees minimum so any condensate will fall down to the bottom of it - where it will be folded around to form a drain that flows into the overflow pipe. Simple! will update tonights pdf with it. I did know that the kettle shouldnt have a lid on it, but I was wondering why ecactly - what does DMS stand for exactly?

Mate,
I have to ask - this is just a theoretical exercise for you right ? You don't actually intend to build this do you ?
Dave

Err, what about this thread suggested otherwise? Yes I do intend to build a fully automated brewing system - it wont look much like the current design, as there is a lot of redesign and simplification to go, followed by complication, collowed by redesign and simplification....... etc. etc. etc.

Yes ? Oh dear - there is just so many actual and potential problems

Just quickly, how do you solve the basic requirement that the grain crushing area must be seperate from the fermentation area to avoid raging lactic infections ?
Dave

The post boil wort will bot be exposed to air that hasnt passed through a sanitary air filter.

What about the steam moistening the grain and hop chutes and causing them to clog ?
How does the volitiles driven off during the boil escape without without condensing back into the boil ? Perhaps you like DMS in your lagers.

Think its worked out earlier in this post.

Where are the failsafe systems and mix proof piping ? There are so many valves that a minor stick or leak will introduce cleaner into your beer or wort. I don't see any overflows to ensure that vessels dont overflow if a valve sticks etc - there should be an outlet to drain that prevents vessels filling past the safe limit.

But anyway, have fun doing whatever you are doing.
Dave

What do you define as mix proof piping exactly?
Yea, I have seen sticks in the grain, havent considered their presence... The cleaner lines are seperated with a ball valve turned by a strong geared motor - I would hope it would shut, but in the event that it didnt make it to its final position the system would produce an error. Interesting, thanks.
Overflows are on every vessel in the pdf's, they are called up as OFV- in the lower left of the page, but will read OF like they are on the vessels.

Cheers dude.

Well done and good thinking on this project.

Lots of reasons this won't work or will be difficult BUT people probably said that to the first guy that tried to brew his own beer.

And I'm sure people have all said to most of us...why would you bother brewing, you can just buy it.

The only way we ever learn is by trying new things.

Good luck and good on ya.

:super: You are a pioneer!!!.....with way too much time on your hands...

They probably also said it to thomas crapper who invented the flushing toilet- which revolutionalised sanitation throughout the planet, the CSIRO who invented the modern solar panel, CSIRO and Varian Australia (a company that makes chemical analysis instruments) who jointly invented the peristatic pump - without which heart surgery would be almost impossible, Varian Australia who invented the metal lamp - without which modern chemical analysis would not be possible, the CSIRO who invented WI-FI. All of which are aussie inventions!

The pioneers are the ones that tried it first, I'm just an assie bloke, which like the examples I gave, didnt believe that anything is not possible - time will tell if it works - WHICH IT BLOODY WELL WILL!

Now back to work....

 

[OzMick]

I did know that the kettle shouldnt have a lid on it, but I was wondering why ecactly - what does DMS stand for exactly?

Dimethyl sulphide. It smells like cooked vegetables, creamed corn etc. Created by thermal decomposition of s-methyl methionine present in malt and driven off during boil, and condensate will cause it to drip back in, but sounds like you've got it sorted.

This is just one reason why hot stands after boiling are to be avoided, as can still be forming but not being evaporated. More heavily kilned (darker) malts also have lower levels due to heats exposed to. Sometimes considered OK in lagers, and not cared about by no-chillers.

 

[andytork]

I would be interested to know what you are doing to measure your volumes

Are you doing flow measurement or level measurement in the vessel(s) if so what method (float, ultrasonic, pressure, laser, capacitive ?)

I am currently investigating "all of the above" for my new brew controller. There are some non-invasive ultrasonics around now that just bolt to the outside of the pot (sort of work like capacitive but without the metalic restriction)

Andy

 

[Bandito]

Not sure. Level measurement definetly. I've go a float valve in the HLT and HERMS, but as for the others... capacitive sound interesting (I do like capacitors and have made my own, also own a capacitance meter & CRO) but would be hard to implement. Ultrasonic could be the go if it were mounted so it pointed down into the vessel and get a distance reading - whats the ones your talking about going through metal? never heard of those! Oh, I suppose its like tapping a half full water tank or gas bottle - damn, that could work!

Pressure would be a spring compressing a squishy tube and measureing the deflection, but that would be very sensitive and niggly.

Laser is prone to vapours I think, I did some research a few years back on this stuff, it starting to come back. I did find an interesting.... was it microwave or ultrasound??? Ultrasound me thinks - but like I described.

I like yours better, like tapping the outside of a tank! Yea, I;ll go for that, thanks heaps! Got a link?

For the tubes, like to check there is fluid in them, I was thinking a light source passing through a clear tube, with a light sensor detecting th light level. I made one years back that a mate designed - It was a light transistor (cant remenber the actual name of it - it was sold by **** smith and cant find it anymore) a light depecdant resister connected to a super alpha transistor pair all in a tiny package, this was connected to a couple more transistors on a small circuit board and biased by a variable resistor which turned on or off a relay depending on the light level. I used it to time the time it took ping pong balls and ball bearings to fall a certain distance, and thus measure velocity of spheres in fluids to measure viscosity of those fluids for a school project (falling shpere viscometer) the relay output of two circuits were simply connected to a stop watch (which I manually reset with the reset button inbetween trials). (thus illistrating that with a little bit of circuitry, a simple on/off can be produced) Could be used here to detect the presence of fluid in a tube.

Or mabee a capacitance or inductance measurement, by running two parallel wires along a section of tube for capacitive, or winding some wire around a tube for inductive. Capacitive would detect the presence of fluid in the tube at the picofarad scale. And, just thinking here, but mabee inductance might detect flowing fluid? It might need a magnet near it - saw something like this in a physics book once - still got it, will have a look sometime soon.

 

[andytork]

down into the vessel and get a distance reading - whats the ones your talking about going through metal? never heard of those! Oh, I

http://www.simcotech.com/turcklevelprox.htm

Looks expensive!

if you do go ultrasonic I would recommend the waterproof ones (of course)

Futurelec do them at $4.90 US a pair, the rest of the gear should come in under $10 (handful of resistors, caps, transistors, a comparator of some type and a pic or avr micro to make sense of it all)

http://www.futurlec.com/Ultrasonic_Sensors.shtml

The speed of sound travelling through the air varies with temperature but is more or less constant at about 340 metres a second, I have never tried ultrasonics with liquids close to boiling, but may be doing soon

Andy

 

[Bandito]

Thanks Andy,

Okay, I am going to freak everyone out here:

one million happiness points to anyone that can tell me the dielectric constant or magnetic permeance of wort. An extra 10 million points for both, and double it if it is a complex reading!

Should be close to water I suppose?

 

[andytork]

Just calibrate it to 1030 wort

 

[paulwolf350]

Thanks Andy,

Okay, I am going to freak everyone out here:

one million happiness points to anyone that can tell me the dielectric constant or magnetic permeance of wort. An extra 10 million points for both, and double it if it is a complex reading!

Should be close to water I suppose?

pretty sure you can measure the diastatic constant, I vaguely remember doing it at Uni

Paul

 

[katzke]

I did know that the kettle shouldnt have a lid on it, but I was wondering why ecactly - what does DMS stand for exactly?

You need to either study or stop putting your foot in your mouth.

Just because you are a process designer does not qualify you to design a fully automated brewing system. You need to have some idea of the processes involved in brewing.

I am sure at work you have some kind of guide to let you know what the requirements are for any project you work on. This project sounds like you are flying by the seat of your pants. That may be saying to much as that requires skill and knowledge.

You are working away at a design and to be blunt you have no idea what you are up against. You have simple brewing processes to keep track of that you have shown you do not understand. You then complicate the contraption with dust from milling and humidity from heating water. You want this to be easier to use then a bread machine.

I am not saying it can not be done but you need to get educated on the process and all the dirty parts. Unless you do this you are going to end up with an encrusted pile of stuff not even worth much as scrap because of all the cleaning needed to scrap it.

One more potential trouble to detect. Boilover! That alone will ruin the brew bot in 30 seconds.

Believe it or not I support you on this project. I think it can be done but still question why. It will make a nice conversation piece but I do not see a market for such an expensive system. This entire project reminds me of some films with the inventor that designs and automatic egg fryer. It starts with the chicken and always ends up in a mess. All because he can never see past the idea of the invention. So I return to my suggestion that you look past the idea and learn about the process and all that can go wrong. Then you can take your knowledge of process control and come up with something that may work.

 

[BottleBitch]

Thanks Andy,

Okay, I am going to freak everyone out here:

one million happiness points to anyone that can tell me the dielectric constant or magnetic permeance of wort. An extra 10 million points for both, and double it if it is a complex reading!

Should be close to water I suppose?

Bandito,

Dont know it off the top of my head but I have it in a book at work, its not the same as water as wort contains sugars that make it much more dense, will have a look for you tonight when I'm at work.

Cheers

Brett

 

[Phoney]

Slightly off topic, but what would be sweet is if you could build an automated cooking and cleaning machine that incorporates a fridge, freezer, pantry, oven, stove, grill, BBQ & dishwasher and is all controlled by a computer.

So you could log into it from work, the program gives you a list of dishes it could prepare out of the ingredients you have in your inventory, you pick one and it's ready by the time you get home. Then it washes up after itself...

Kind of like a robotic housewife that doesnt nag or leave the kitchen. This would also free up your human wife for other, far more enjoyable activities!

 

[andytork]

Pretty sure it would become self-aware, then it would be two against one

 

[alowen474]

Slightly off topic, but what would be sweet is if you could build an automated cooking and cleaning machine that incorporates a fridge, freezer, pantry, oven, stove, grill, BBQ & dishwasher and is all controlled by a computer.

So you could log into it from work, the program gives you a list of dishes it could prepare out of the ingredients you have in your inventory, you pick one and it's ready by the time you get home. Then it washes up after itself...

Kind of like a robotic housewife that doesnt nag or leave the kitchen. This would also free up your human wife for other, far more enjoyable activities!

i think that's called mcdonalds

 

[komodo]

^ how **** is your wifes cooking if you comparing it to McDonalds?

 

[bigholty]

Or you could leave the cooking and cleaning to the wife, and build a robot to take care of the "far more enjoyable activities"....................

 

[Phoney]

Or you could leave the cooking and cleaning to the wife, and build a robot to take care of the "far more enjoyable activities"....................

You mean like Roxxy? :lol:

http://money.ca.msn.com/savings-debt/insig...mentid=23230369

 

[newguy]

Slightly off topic, but what would be sweet is if you could build an automated cooking and cleaning machine that incorporates a fridge, freezer, pantry, oven, stove, grill, BBQ & dishwasher and is all controlled by a computer.

So you could log into it from work, the program gives you a list of dishes it could prepare out of the ingredients you have in your inventory, you pick one and it's ready by the time you get home. Then it washes up after itself...

Kind of like a robotic housewife that doesnt nag or leave the kitchen. This would also free up your human wife for other, far more enjoyable activities!

They have that on star trek. I think it's called a replicator. For the food, not the other activities. For the other activities, I think you're thinking of one of these:

 

[Bandito]

You need to either study or stop putting your foot in your mouth.

Just because you are a process designer does not qualify you to design a fully automated brewing system. You need to have some idea of the processes involved in brewing.

I am sure at work you have some kind of guide to let you know what the requirements are for any project you work on. This project sounds like you are flying by the seat of your pants. That may be saying to much as that requires skill and knowledge.

You are working away at a design and to be blunt you have no idea what you are up against. You have simple brewing processes to keep track of that you have shown you do not understand. You then complicate the contraption with dust from milling and humidity from heating water. You want this to be easier to use then a bread machine.

I am not saying it can not be done but you need to get educated on the process and all the dirty parts. Unless you do this you are going to end up with an encrusted pile of stuff not even worth much as scrap because of all the cleaning needed to scrap it.

One more potential trouble to detect. Boilover! That alone will ruin the 'brew bot' in 30 seconds.

Believe it or not I support you on this project. I think it can be done but still question why. It will make a nice conversation piece but I do not see a market for such an expensive system. This entire project reminds me of some films with the inventor that designs and automatic egg fryer. It starts with the chicken and always ends up in a mess. All because he can never see past the idea of the invention. So I return to my suggestion that you look past the idea and learn about the process and all that can go wrong. Then you can take your knowledge of process control and come up with something that may work.

This is a good post actually, the comments that follow are intended to be read as calm and happy -
Hey, I am not afraid of asking a stupid question - if I didnt know the answer, then I will ask - nothing wrong with that. At the various places I have worked over the years, there have been terms flying around all over the place, if I didnt know what they meant I would ask - there werent many times that anybody knew, they were just pretending to know. Quite a few people did look like quite the fool because they were pretending to know - I dont do that. We really do need a glossary wiki on this forumn.

Oh, I am not a process designer, I am a structural steel detailer at the moment, I have been a structural designer - Lead structural steel designer actually. I have drafted / design ie. layed out the mechanical equipment for a couple of sand mining process plants
that are more complex than this. I was also the only navisworks checker at the samd mining place, and would fly around the massive mineral sand processing plants checking for anything that was wrong - no formal qualifications though, so I could not get a job to do this sort of thing professionally, but this is a hobby, not a job, so I wasnt aware that I needed any formal qualifications to do this .

Quote: "You are working away at a design and to be blunt you have no idea what you are up against. You have simple brewing processes to keep track of that you have shown you do not understand. You then complicate the contraption with dust from milling and humidity from heating water. You want this to be easier to use then a bread machine."

Boilovers will be dealt with by using a much larger kettle than required, and the whole machine will be mounted above a sink type thing (cant think of the name of it atm
It is no where as complex as the buildings that I draft on a day to day basis - some of them have had upwards of 100,000 bolts holding everything together - while is it a bit complex, it not all that hard! I suppose I would rate it just under the adelaide oval southern stand that I detailed.

Hmmm, bread machine hey? I have been looking for something like it, could it work? I have seen to many inventor stories where a budding inventor spends 20 years inventing something only to find out it has no commercial value and as such jsut wasted all that time - if a bread machine or similar can do it, then Ill use it.

Quote: "Believe it or not I support you on this project. I think it can be done but still question why."
Was wondering when someone was going to ask this question. The answer is: because there isnt enough hours in the day and not enough days in the week. I love my automatic washing machine, dishwasher and robotic vacuum cleaner - couldnt live without them - well, I only just found the powersupply for the robotic vaccum cleaner last weekend, and so like a fool I have been sweeping my floors with a broom, well, a massive broom to reduce the tme it takes, but still like a fool.

Lastly, today I asked my boss if he knew of a valve that was like my 'geared motor crushed valve design'.He said it was called a knife gate, then when I explained the purpose he said I needed a needle valve. Then he said I should just send the design to the process engineering company we work with - not sure if it would cost anything, and I would like to get the pfd and p&id worked out first, but I am thinking I will send it to them for initial review and then again for final checking, although my boss will also be of great help.

I did make this thread so that all youz could help me. I know and fully admit that I cant do it all on my own - yes I need your help, I dont have enough experience to do this myself. What I do bring to the table is the design process - its the same design process that is used to design every process plant on the planet. The only reason why this project would fail is if the proper design process was not used.

Furthermore, I do think that I have been a bit harsh on some just because I have read their replys as negatively based, I do apploigise for that, but the only other reason why this project will not go to completion is that I loose motivation to continue to spend every spare minute working on it (as wall as working full time plus overtime).

Bandito,

Dont know it off the top of my head but I have it in a book at work, its not the same as water as wort contains sugars that make it much more dense, will have a look for you tonight when I'm at work.

Cheers
Brett

Sweet! Use of books are acceptable.

Slightly off topic, but what would be sweet is if you could build an automated cooking and cleaning machine that incorporates a fridge, freezer, pantry, oven, stove, grill, BBQ & dishwasher and is all controlled by a computer.

So you could log into it from work, the program gives you a list of dishes it could prepare out of the ingredients you have in your inventory, you pick one and it's ready by the time you get home. Then it washes up after itself...

Kind of like a robotic housewife that doesnt nag or leave the kitchen. This would also free up your human wife for other, far more enjoyable activities!

Was just thinking of this yeaterday! Why today, I had to come home early to defrost a leg of lamb! Might be the next project.

Pretty sure it would become self-aware, then it would be two against one

Yea, that is a major concern with my system too. It will be controlled by an overclocked, very fast pc. If it were to become self aware and learn at a geometric rate, there is not telling what it may brew!


I would also like to reiterate my first reply in this thread where I said that this will be completely open source - as in, everything will be made available. At the end, one should be able to take the design and detail fabrication drawings for a specific section or the whole lot to a fabricator and have then make it. Software settings and program alogarythms will also be provided openly.

Now, back to building the grain hopper prototype.....