Five Star 5.2 Ph Stabilizer

[Fourstar]

Personally I'd try and work out what you can change in your technique/process before moving to water additions. You should be able to hit much higher than 55%.

I think the poor efficiency may have todo with a range of things that can be easily fixed. The sparge technique, in conjunction with temperature control and L:G ratio no to mention ensuring you thoroughly wet/mix the grain upon dough in.

If this is all good, simply holding it at a constant temp the conversion should be easy. Then its just a matter of getting the wort out of the grain thats the tricky part. which may be the issue all along. Especially with a small mash tun.

 

[Supra-Jim]

Yes very true, chalk is diffucult to dissolve but the method in my madness was to help them control the amount of carbonates they put into their mash as adding alkalinity, uncontrolled (if they do not have gram scales) via baking soda is abit of a dangerous job, especially if you dont add Ca hardness. The mash does 1/2 the job at dissolving it but is not as effective as an acid. A way to use chalk (a bit of a PITA) via acid is to put your mash water into an empty corny keg with your chalk and carbonate it. This creates a bicarbonate and Ca.

By adding CO2 we create carbonic acid and its the carbonic acid that will aid in dissolving the chalk.

Could you pre-mix your chalk into a bottle of soda water, and add it this way?

Cheers SJ

 

[Fourstar]

Could you pre-mix your chalk into a bottle of soda water, and add it this way?

Cheers SJ

Only one way to find out but i guess it could work. I can assure you of one thing, mass nucleation when you add the chalk to the bottle!

 

[Supra-Jim]

Ahhhhh! Good point, i forgot about that! Maybe use a soda-stream machine if you ahve one lying around.

Cheers SJ

 

[kevin_smevin]

alternatively just use CaCl or CaSO4 along with Baking soda and you dont have to stuff about. All very soluble

 

[Fourstar]

alternatively just use CaCl or CaSO4 along with Baking soda and you dont have to stuff about. All very soluble

but then wont it precipitate out as chalk?

 

[Bribie G]

About 55%, albeit I'm still learning my equipment and technique.

Have been using the BIASIAE (Brew In A Sheet In An Esky) method, with a batch sparge after draining the first runnings. Current esky is too small to do a proper mash-out, although I added a couple of litres of boiling water at the end to raise it a degree or two.

Last brew I let the bag (well, technically, sheet) drain suspended for about 15 mins, and I got a couple more litres of wort into the boil. It's still in the cube, so haven't checked actual OG yet, but still ended up 5 gravity points lower than the BeerSmith estimate on my pre-boil wort.

:icon_offtopic:

Off topic but would you like to start a thread on this? I'm absolutely fascinated by the ramifications of this concept, which I became acquainted with exactly four minutes ago - may be a good cheaper avenue into AG for beginners.

 

[kevin_smevin]

but then wont it precipitate out as chalk?

I might be missing something but why do you want it to precipitate after going to such lengths to make it soluble?

 

[Supra-Jim]

Brew in a sheet in an esky

+

Sorry, I'll go and sit in corner now!

Cheers SJ

 

[Fourstar]

I might be missing something but why do you want it to precipitate after going to such lengths to make it soluble?

Exactly. When you add calcium and carbonate together in water, my understanding is they will precipitate out as chalk unless the pH is low enough to keep them soluble. So adding them in the form of CaCl and NaHCO3 will yield you with chalk precipitate.

 

[WarmBeer]

:icon_offtopic:

Off topic but would you like to start a thread on this? I'm absolutely fascinated by the ramifications of this concept, which I became acquainted with exactly four minutes ago - may be a good cheaper avenue into AG for beginners.

BIASIAE - Cause I can't sew well enough to make a bag, and I'm too tight to buy a proper manifold

The swiss voille acts to keep the grain from escaping, and allows squeezing / suspending the grains post mash.

The esky just helps keep consistent temperature during the rest without lagging with a doona, etc.

I think I will stump up for a bigger esky, and possibly a manifold of some sort soon, but this is how I learnt, so this is what I do.

 

[manticle]

How do you outlet from the esky and how big is it? Big doesn't necessarily = better.

 

[Supra-Jim]

That esky looks to be around 20-25ltr mark and most likely has bung in the bottom of one of sides for draining. A larger (within reason) would allow for, i imagine, WB to mash a full grain bill and do a mash out/batch???

Cheers SJ

 

[manticle]

I use 26 Litre and regulalrly mash with 6+ kg grain bills. I also mash out with around 6-8 L of water. She's full but it's possible.

 

[WarmBeer]

How do you outlet from the esky and how big is it? Big doesn't necessarily = better.

As S-J supposed, there is a bung-hole (tee-hee-hee ) drilled by the previous owner in the bottom of the esky, which I've siliconed a garden hose adapter into to provide an outlet. Esky is approx 23 lt capacity.

I'm only targeting 17lt batches (no-chill into a FWK cube), but at the efficiencies I'm getting, I have been using about 5kg grain at a L:G ratio of about 2.8:1. It gets pretty full if I need to top up with boiling water mid-mash to maintain temperature.

The last batch I used Powells malt, but prior to that have used JW. Crush was done by G&G.

I'm not particularly worried about the dollar or two extra spent due to the low efficiency, but the engineer in me desperately wants to "optimise, optimise, optimise".

 

[manticle]

I guess this is a little OT now but:

I've heard (and someone may correct me) that efficiency suffers if the grain bill gets too large.

Next time try using around 4 kg at a ratio of 2.5 per L. Preheat the tun and insulate it to avoid having to add anything in during mashing. Mash out with around 6 L of near boiling water. After mash out let the bed settle 10 minutes, then drain off your recirculation wort (slowly at first, then quicker as the end of the hose is covered) and your first runnings.

Assuming you're batch sparging, add in water around 78 deg and let the bed settle for 10 mins again. I read a recommendation that gentle stirring at this point should increase efficiency - I've found the exact opposite so I don't do that anymore. Recirc again till no husks, then drain in the same way.

This is how I do it in my tun - obviously your equipment may vary, your mileage may vary etc but it works for me. Give it a go and see before you start treating the water. Once you're happy then try and up the points a bit with some additions.

 

[kevin_smevin]

Exactly. When you add calcium and carbonate together in water, my understanding is they will precipitate out as chalk unless the pH is low enough to keep them soluble. So adding them in the form of CaCl and NaHCO3 will yield you with chalk precipitate.

So you add say CaCl and NaHCO3 to water and the molecules dissociate to form Ca + Cl + Na + H + CO3 all in their ionic forms. They will remain like this until it is heated and then Ca and CO3 will combine to form CaCO3 (chalk) and precipitate out of solution (this is very simplified). In the old days they used to boil brewing water to precipitate out chalk and reduce alkalinity before using it for mashing/sparging.

When you add CaCO3, it forms Ca and CO3 ions which like above will form CaCO3 and precipitate out of solution upon heating. The problem here is that it is so insoluble you have to acidify the water via carbonation to get it to dissociate. Once in their ionic form they behave exactly the same is if you added CaCl and NaHCO3.

The only difference i see is the solubility and the trouble your going through to get the chalk into solution? Thats my understanding anyway. It may be wrong, i'm sure we could go back and forth all day....

 

[Supra-Jim]

Hi manticle,

I've 'heard' the opposite, large grain bills are easier to get better efficiency (provided they are approxiate for the vessel). It was explained to me (briefly) that the depth of the mash effects efficiency. Shallow mash can lead to low efficiency, however a deeper mash is easier to get better efficiency. Can't recall the exact how's and whys of it.

I think water to grain ratio also comes into play somewhere here too.

Cheers SJ

 

[manticle]

Yeah I would have thought it would be to do with bed depth and water ratios and be vessel dependent (so proportional). I guess there's probably an optimum and either side of that efficiency suffers?

Anyway pure speculation on my part at this point.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

There must be some link here to why Germans store their beer in limestone caves... h34r: