First Saison, Thoughts Please! (wy3711)

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Guysmiley54

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Hi guys,

I'm working on a recipe for a Saison using Wyeast 3711. I'm looking to head down the track of a Saison Sauvin type high gravity new world hop type of Saison, but I have a few questions...

Ferment temp? I'm looking to keep the funk in check but hoping for a lemon peppery dry citrus finish.
Ferment time? How does ferment temp influence fermentation time? What is "normal"?
Attenuation? Given adequate oxygenation (and a single infusion mash @ 64C) what can I expect here?

Any other thoughts or advice for a modern Saison?

Thanks :icon_cheers:
 

donburke

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Hi guys,

I'm working on a recipe for a Saison using Wyeast 3711. I'm looking to head down the track of a Saison Sauvin type high gravity new world hop type of Saison, but I have a few questions...

Ferment temp? I'm looking to keep the funk in check but hoping for a lemon peppery dry citrus finish.
Ferment time? How does ferment temp influence fermentation time? What is "normal"?
Attenuation? Given adequate oxygenation (and a single infusion mash @ 64C) what can I expect here?

Any other thoughts or advice for a modern Saison?

Thanks :icon_cheers:
made a beer about a year ago, was something like this;

85% dingemans pilsner
7% weyermann wheat
3.5% carabelge
3.5% victory

mashed at 63 for 45min, stepped 72 for 30min

cascade & riwaka bittering
cascade & riwaka 1g/litre at 20min
cascade & riwaka 1g/litre at 5 min

27 ibu / 1.048

fermented at 22 deg with wy3711

i remember it was done in a week, chilled for another few days then kegged

i remember the hop character came through in the final product

i remember that the 'funk' was in check in the beer

i remember the beer was on the dry side, but still had good mouthfeel to it

i remember everyone drinking it saying it was a great summer beer

i remember saying to myself i will brew this again next summer

thank you for reminding me of this beer
 

Nick JD

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I've never used the Frenchy yeast, but the Belgian has very little "funk". And I ferment it at 35C.

It's got the silky mouthfeel thing in spades though - and maybe a tiny bit of spiciness - but use a BdGuard yeast if you want funk.
 

Guysmiley54

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Sounds nice Don!

Do I need to make a starter or can I just use 1 smack pack?

Cheers

made a beer about a year ago, was something like this;

85% dingemans pilsner
7% weyermann wheat
3.5% carabelge
3.5% victory

mashed at 63 for 45min, stepped 72 for 30min

cascade & riwaka bittering
cascade & riwaka 1g/litre at 20min
cascade & riwaka 1g/litre at 5 min

27 ibu / 1.048

fermented at 22 deg with wy3711

i remember it was done in a week, chilled for another few days then kegged

i remember the hop character came through in the final product

i remember that the 'funk' was in check in the beer

i remember the beer was on the dry side, but still had good mouthfeel to it

i remember everyone drinking it saying it was a great summer beer

i remember saying to myself i will brew this again next summer

thank you for reminding me of this beer
 

manticle

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3711 does not require the hot temps that the Belgian saison does (which falls asleep much below around 30). However it can cope with hotter temps.

I agree with Nick - you won't get loads of funk, depending on your definition of funk.
Pepper will come from the yeast, lemon more from the hops.
Attenuates well. Mash low (62/63) and expect 1002-1008
Better - follow donburke's regime and do a low mash and then a high mash (62/72)

Look for a new world hop with citrus/lemon characteristics.
 

Guysmiley54

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Hey Manticle, 1002 - 1008 is pretty broad... I like to control my balance value fairly tightly, could you possibly translate that into AA%?

I am looking at pushing the gravity, any thoughts on crystal or ibu at a beer around 6-7%?

Cheers

3711 does not require the hot temps that the Belgian saison does (which falls asleep much below around 30). However it can cope with hotter temps.

I agree with Nick - you won't get loads of funk, depending on your definition of funk.
Pepper will come from the yeast, lemon more from the hops.
Attenuates well. Mash low (62/63) and expect 1002-1008
Better - follow donburke's regime and do a low mash and then a high mash (62/72)

Look for a new world hop with citrus/lemon characteristics.
 

manticle

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No I can't translate that gravity into ABV unless I know what your OG is and then I would use the same calculators/calculations you presumably would.

Expect it to drop below 1010. The rest is dependent on things like mash temp etc. I have had 3711 at 1006-1007 and had it drop as low as 1002-100033 so that range is based on my experience with that yeast.

Leave the crystal out - Saison, whether high grav or low grav version should be dry and refreshing, my opinion only. At most, if you want malty, use a bit of munich
 

Guysmiley54

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I meant apparent attenuation not ABV but I get your point :)

Don had some crystal in his and victory/biscuit too... I think I'll use a 60/40 Pils/Vienna split and maybe 1/2kg of wheat too...

Thanks for your help :beerbang:

No I can't translate that gravity into ABV unless I know what your OG is and then I would use the same calculators/calculations you presumably would.

Expect it to drop below 1010. The rest is dependent on things like mash temp etc. I have had 3711 at 1006-1007 and had it drop as low as 1002-100033 so that range is based on my experience with that yeast.

Leave the crystal out - Saison, whether high grav or low grav version should be dry and refreshing, my opinion only. At most, if you want malty, use a bit of munich
 

manticle

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Apparent attenuation should be included with the yeast specs.

I put victory or biscuit in mine regularly but neither used, nor see the need for crystal.

You can easily make a nice dry saison at 6-7% and still knock it down to 1006 (for example) with the right mash temp using 3711.
 

donburke

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Sounds nice Don!

Do I need to make a starter or can I just use 1 smack pack?

Cheers
make a starter, normal pitch rate for an ale

throw some crystal in, or whatever else you have in your sock draw, it is a new age saison after all

the yeast will do a good job at making it drinkable
 

Guysmiley54

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Hey there,

I brewed this one using Dons mash schedule (63 for 45, 72 for 30, no mashout) and made a 2L starter (only 10 hour growth @21C but it had a nice thick krausen).

7 days later and it is at 1010. It has been a slow ferment, starting at 20C for 4 days and then a 1C increase for the last 3 days. Is it typical for this yeast to slow down for the final few points?

Manticle, you recommended to check the Wyeast specs to work out the AA%. At 77%-83%, the best BrewMate tells me I can expect is 1010 but most people (that I've read on forums) seem to get a much drier finish than this.

I'm in a hurry to get this one into cold conditioning before bottling... At what point should I flip the switch?

Cheers :icon_cheers:

Apparent attenuation should be included with the yeast specs.

I put victory or biscuit in mine regularly but neither used, nor see the need for crystal.

You can easily make a nice dry saison at 6-7% and still knock it down to 1006 (for example) with the right mash temp using 3711.
 

Verbyla

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If your in a hurry bump the temp up to 30 degrees for a few days and see if the gravity stays stable. My saison went off like a fire cracker for the first 3 days and then slowly ate through the last few points over the course of a week. I used the Belgium strain so that may not help you but is still a reasonable comparison
 

Guysmiley54

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If your in a hurry bump the temp up to 30 degrees for a few days and see if the gravity stays stable. My saison went off like a fire cracker for the first 3 days and then slowly ate through the last few points over the course of a week. I used the Belgium strain so that may not help you but is still a reasonable comparison
OG was 1058.

Think I will keep it at 23 as 25 is the max for 3711. Manticle, you've used this strain before haven't you? Would you expect it to be slow at the end?

Cheers
 

manticle

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Most yeasts of my experience slow somewhat towards the end. First time I used 3711, I thought it was finished at 1010, which is my usual. Stayed there for a bit before dropping to a much drier 1005-1006.

I'd give it some more time. I've got a 3711 at the moment - should check the gravity but was 1012 a few days ago aftter about 4 days at the mercy of ambient melbourne weather.
 

Thefatdoghead

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OG was 1058.

Think I will keep it at 23 as 25 is the max for 3711. Manticle, you've used this strain before haven't you? Would you expect it to be slow at the end?

Cheers
Rais the temp or let it go longer. you should get 1.007 with that OG for a good quaffer.
 

doon

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I went up to 35 I think with no ill effects. Had vb drinkers saying how nice it was
 

manticle

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The whole point of saison yeasts for me is that you can abandon caution and just let it run as hot as it likes.

Getting too bogged down in the details is the antithesis of a refreshing farmhouse/peasant ale and all its wonderful gloriousness.

I have never fermented 3711 above 38.2 degrees
 

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