First Lager advice

[contrarian]

So I was at the LHBS today and they stock some white labs yeast so I always have a bit of a look to see what they have and whether there is anything interesting. After devising a convoluted method to maintain temp up around 18C for my porter that is currently developing a handsome krausen thanks to some 1084 I have become intimately aware of the ambient temperature of my garage.

As a result the WL German Lager yeast jumped out at me. Previously I have been too lazy to try a lager due to the time taken and space in fermenter chamber but given I should be able to sit this on the floor to ferment it seemed like as good a time as any.

So now I have the yeast I need something to do with it. Being a raiders fan I always try to brew when they are playing so watching them isn't a complete waste of an afternoon/evening and this has often proved incredibly therapeutic. I have a good range of malts for the style including pilsner, munich, acidulated, melanoiden, carapils and carabohemian.

It would be good to start simple so I am either thinking

60% pilsner
35% munich
5% carapils

or

92% pils
5% carabohemian
3% acidulated

I have a massive bag of saaz so will be using that for the hops.

At this point I am more interested in learning the process rather than trying to hit a specific BJCP style but am always open to suggestions.

Have never made a yeast starter before but it seems like this is almost mandatory for lagers so was thinking of running some extra wort after filling cubes and using this. I don't have a stir plate so it will be old fashioned shaking this time around in some kind of bottle I can find, probably a clean and sanitised soft drink bottle.

Is this necessary or could I just start with a 15L cube of a relatively low gravity wort, say around 1.040 and then reuse the yeast cake?

On that note it is going to be cold for a while yet, any suggestions on another brew to pitch onto the yeast cake would be greatly appreciated!

In terms of fermentation it seems like most people try to ferment around 10-12C until gravity reaches around 1.020 and then do a diyacetal rest at around 20C for between 3-7 days. Then transfer to secondary (I was going to use a keg) and lager for 4-6 weeks.

Are there any glaring issues with this process?

 

[Ditchnbeer]

I'll start with saying that if you want to make a good lager, it is very important to pitch enough yeast. Don't go to all that effort of brewing then fermenting 3 weeks then lager for 6 weeks to underpitch - something totally in your control. Buy some dry malt extract (cheap), use the 1gm / 10ml ratio (200gms ot DME into 2L of water), boil gently for mins, cool then pitch yr yeast into that when cooled to 12 degrees, grow for 24 hours then pitch when wort at correct temp.
Old fashioned shaking is fine every time u walk past it


Also I can recommend pitching at 9 instead of 12, holding there until fermentation activity stopped then diacyetal rest at 11-12. If activity stalls before the gravity is where it should be, raise temp and give it a swirl to hopefully reawaken.

 

[antiphile]

This one turned out beautifully.
Style: Bohemian Pilsner

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 35.58 l
Post Boil Volume: 28.08 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Bottling Volume: 25.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 9.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 39.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 84.5 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4.90 kg Pilsner Premium (2.0 EBC) Grain 1 86.5 %
0.45 kg Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC) Grain 2 7.6 %
0.20 kg Acidulated (Weyermann) (3.5 EBC) Grain 3 3.6 %
0.13 kg Crystal, Dark (Simpsons) (157.6 EBC) Grain 4 2.3 %
60.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 23.2 IBUs
45.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 6 13.4 IBUs
20.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 2.9 IBUs
20.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs

You could sub munich for the vienna. and adjust or change the crystal. WLP830, WLP835 or the Budejoice would all work well, and it's a very simple recipe. Normal pilsner will work just as well as premium, BTW.

Good luck.

Edit added: Whoops. I mistook WL for White Labs. The Wyeast lager yeasts would, of course, go equally well.

 

[contrarian]

Thanks for the tips guys. Can easily get some DME if necessary but are there any issues with using wort? If the gravity is higher than 1.040 it would be easy to adjust down with some boiled and cooled water. I also thought this might work in terms of adding the whole starter.

Thanks for the recipe too antiphile! Looks like a cracker and just what I'm after. It is the white labs yeast that I have. WLP 830 so sounds like that will do the trick nicely.

As I've said this is the beginning of a learning process so not expecting perfection but it's always better if you can make nice beer!

Cheers!

No issues pitching at 9, will just do it in the morning.

Are you suggesting that a diacetyl rest can be done at 12C? Based on what I have read I would have anticipated needing to go higher.

 

[Ditchnbeer]

Re diacetyl rest - just use 2-3 degrees higher than the fermenting temp will do It depends on how yr yeast performs. I've had good results with German style lagers at 9 degrees so can rest at 12. But if ferment lags at like 1020 you might need to raise the temp & swirl it to finish it up. whatever the temp is at end of ferment just raise it 2 degrees more. Be patient at end so the beer will finish properly. Keep an eye on it and roll with what happens. Later on you can experiment with rising temps during fermentation but keep it simple to start with until you get sorted on a few things.
Good luck!

 

[Ditchnbeer]

No issues with using wort, would be good option as long as you can ensure its sterile.

 

[antiphile]

I can see where Ditchnbeer is coming from, and his suggestion will work, but it may just require a bit more patience for the yeast to fully clean it up (the diacetyl). I approach it slightly differently, but both methods work well.

These days I pitch (plenty of yeast like he advises) at about 14C and let it fall to within the recommended temp range. This is often 10 or 11 degrees. When it gets down to about 1.015-1.017, I raise it to 15C which is not as high as many suggest, until it reaches FG plus about 3 days. Then I drop it 3C per day until it reaches 0C and keep it there as long as I can, but a minimum of a fortnight.

Neither of these are the quickest way to finish it, but IMHO both give very good results.

Edit added: I'm busting to try a very-cool fermenting yeast that I've nearly finished making into a big starter. The Yeast Bay Hessian Lager yeast has a recommended fermenting range of 7-8C so I'll have to exercise a lot of patience.

 

[contrarian]

I no chill so would use the same wort for the beer, chill in a sanitised container and use that for the starter.

Good to know I only need to raise the temp a few degrees for the d-rest as well and will keep the temp as low as possible, well, within reason!

This is what happens when you get a bit comfortable with your process I guess, you go and complicate it again! No doubt it will be flasks an stir plates all
Over the place in no time!

 

[Rocker1986]

I use a similar method to antiphile. Starts out the same, making a large starter, pitching plenty of yeast at or near my intended ferment temp of 10C. When it gets down to about 1023-1025 I raise it to 19C (no heating, I let it come up itself, takes a couple of days) and leave it there until about 4-5 days post hitting FG. By this stage it's normally about day 14. Then I drop it to 0C and leave it there for two weeks then bottle it. This is all done in the primary, I don't use a secondary except for bulk priming. It's about 4 weeks all up and just as good results to me as the drawn out method.

Not my development though, I got this from the Brulosophy site, but yeah, I must say I'm a convert now after trying it a couple of times.

 

[contrarian]

Thanks for the tips guys, very helpful!

So you might need a slightly longer d-rest at 15-16C but it will do the job?

This is what I've never brewed lagers! But with full kegs and pipeline I feel like I have the time and the weather to give this a good crack!

I actually have a DIY stir plate so might have to dig it out and work out how to put it together!

With lagering can this be done in a corny keg under CO2 pressure or should it be done in a secondary vessel!

 

[manticle]

No drama using wort for starters. I prefer to do so.
Pitching sufficient healthy yeast and oxygenating well is as integral as good temp control and lagering/conditioning time.

 

[dent]

These days I pitch (plenty of yeast like he advises) at about 14C and let it fall to within the recommended temp range. This is often 10 or 11 degrees. When it gets down to about 1.015-1.017, I raise it to 15C which is not as high as many suggest, until it reaches FG plus about 3 days. Then I drop it 3C per day until it reaches 0C and keep it there as long as I can, but a minimum of a fortnight.

Only thing I'd add is that pitching cold with lager yeast will result in a cleaner ferment - I pitch mine at 4, let it rise to 6, then once there is activity (there can be a lot -- even at 6!) ramp to ferment temp. This is to limit the amount of inappropriate by-products the yeast may generate during the growth phase.

 

[antiphile]

I've never even considered pitching as low as 4C, (arthur) dent. I'll have to give it a try on the next one. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Rocker1986]

Me either, but might just put that in the to-do list of experimenting with my lagers. Apparently Pilsner Urquell actually ferments theirs at 4C, then raises it to a maximum of 9C before they halt the fermentation and transfer it to the lagering tanks. :blink:

 

[anthonyUK]

I follow the Mr Malty advice for yeast starters.

Keep starters between 65°F (18°C) and 75°F (24°C). A temperature around the low 70s (72°F, 22°C) strikes the best balance for the propagation of yeasts. Lager yeast starters can be kept a few degrees cooler and ale yeasts can be kept a few degrees warmer, but this temperature strikes a good balance of yeast health and efficient propagation for both types of yeast.

I would say yeast amounts are more important than temp control even.
Brulosopher has another article that is worth a look - http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

 

[dent]

Seems like a decent article, more thorough than most.

When it comes to maximum temperatures, I'd be looking at commercial breweries, since they have every incentive to get the beer out of the fermenter as fast as possible. If they could ferment it warmer and get away with it, they would.

I've cranked out a pale lager in 4 days grain to brain before, with a combination of fermenting under pressure, a buttload of yeast, cold crash and filter - bright into the glass. Was actually pretty damn good on the day. Good thing most of it was drunk in one night, though, as by day 7 or so, some nasty VDKs were cropping up and it was pretty undrinkable after that.

Though if I had some of those industrial enzymes....

 

[manticle]

I am also a fan of very cool pitching.
Be patient, make something else at the same time and thank bacchus you're not trying to make good single malt.

 

[contrarian]

So would you make a starter at around 18C and then chill down to your pitching temperature? Or make the starter at the temperature you are planning on pitching at?

 

[Rocker1986]

When it comes to maximum temperatures, I'd be looking at commercial breweries, since they have every incentive to get the beer out of the fermenter as fast as possible. If they could ferment it warmer and get away with it, they would.

I think that's the main force behind that quick lager method that I use. Like I say I've tried it a couple of times and have been very happy with the outcomes. In reality, it's not much different to what I was doing before, the only change is the length of time spent lagering before bottling.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/ is the article on it for anyone interested.

 

[dent]

So would you make a starter at around 18C and then chill down to your pitching temperature? Or make the starter at the temperature you are planning on pitching at?

You can make the starter warm like that yeah.

When it is ready, put it in the fridge with rest of the wort as you chill both down to pitching temperature. That way your yeast and wort are at the same temperature, which makes life easier for the yeast. Lager brewing is all about keeping the yeast happy.