First ever brew, need cider advice

[Jordansr]

So, I am completely new to the whole homebrewing thing. I've been wanting to do it for a while but I only turned 18 2 weeks ago. My dad brought me a Black Rock Cider kit from Dave's homebrew store, and there were a few questions I have:

1. Should I just stick to the simple outline for the first batch with no additives? Because I was thinking of adding some cinnamon and honey, just because I've never had the opportunity to actually tailor the taste before and I thought that would go well.
2. If I change the yeast for a yeast with higher alcohol tolerance and add more fermentable sugar to adjust, will the alcohol content be the only thing that changes?
3. If I want some degree of sweetness, is it better to just use unfermentable sugar to add that degree of sweetness, or is it better to add more fermentable sugar than the yeast is physically capable of converting to ethanol (Due to limited alcohol tolerance)?
4. Should I use the carbonation drops, or is there a better way of carbonating the cider?
5. Where should I store the fermentation vessel? Should it go in the space under the house, or can I just leave it in my room?
6. How do I keep the temperature from killing the fermentation in this heat?
7. If I'm leaving on holidays for 5 days on the 30th (Finishing HSC 28th), can I leave it unattended after starting for those couple days?

I know it's a lot of questions (Completely clueless about the processes atm, but read the cider starting thread), so they don't all have to be answered, any advice at all is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance guys

 

[Jordansr]

Also, still living in the theoretical world with no practice under the belt, what is the problem with high temperatures? In chem (I know, theory not practice) they taught use that yeast converts sugars to ethanol most effectively at temps of 35C, so does the temp itself kill the yeast or does it do something undesirable to the products?

 

[TimT]

No, the higher temp just causes the yeast to make undesirable flavours and aromas. At lower temps, around 20 degrees, the yeast is more well behaved Avoid honey for this brew; you won't end up with much of a honey flavour - the honey will almost entirely ferment out. Cinnamon addition is possible but for this first go, why not just go with a plain cider and see what you think of the taste?

 

[superstock]

I agree with TimT, keep the first one simple. Possibley use raw or brown sugar instead of white sugar or dextrose. Ferment as cool as possible. It will ferment very dry, but I think the BR kit comes with a flavour pouch and a sweetener. (never used a BR kit so could be wrong. Look up swamp cooler to cool it.

 

[Airgead]

Re high temps -

yes yeast will metabolise sugars to ethanol more quickly at higher temps. The whole yeast metabolism speeds up to an optimal point around 30C. The problem is that at those temps, the yeast gets lazy and instead of cleaning up nicely after its self, it spit out a whole bunch of other stuff from intermediate stages in the sugar->ethanol pathway.

So in practice you get a really fast fermentation (couple of days) but your beer/cider is full of aldyhydes, higher alcohols, esters and other junk that detract from the brew.

Short answer - its fast but tastes nasty.

Cheers
Dave

 

[TimT]

To answer questions 2 and 3. Ciders tend to ferment out quite dry because of the concentration of fermented sugars in the apple juice. So in that respect it doesn't matter so much what yeast you use. Adding so much sugar that the yeast stops working before it's all fermented out is a technique in some wines, but not cider so much (it would change the quality and character of the cider too much). Good thinking though.

Some brewers here use unfermentable sugars; I never bother with my cider as I try to make it from apples that have enough flavour in them (tannins/unfermentable sugar/acids) to give a special quality to the final brew. Again, I wouldn't bother with Black Rock cider - I've made some and it has enough flavour on its own. If, on fermenting, you find you don't like the flavour you can always use it as a punch base anyway.

 

[Jordansr]

Thanks for the quick replies guys. How do most people around here keep the temperatures low enough in the summer heat?

 

[TimT]

A lot of folks have more advanced methods than me and will use a brew fridge or even (conceivably) a tub of cool water.

I just do a season-appropriate brew and try to use the right yeast. I find that inside, mostly, temperatures stay around 20 and won't go much higher - except in summer. That's good for most brews.

I don't think you'd have too many problems with a cider, to be honest. Find a cool shady corner of the house that will stay a fairly steady temperature and let it ferment away.

 

[Airgead]

I brew my ciders from fresh apples so I'm brewing at harvest time - autumn when temps are getting low. they ferment slowly over autumn and winter and are ready to drink in the spring.

if you brew from juice you don't have to be so seasonal but then you have the challenge of maintaining a low temp. For my beers I have a dedicated fermenting fridge with a temp controller. A lot of cider guys do the same.

Cheers
dave

 

[Jordansr]

If we have this ancient fridge at home that none of us use anymore, do you think it's worth cleaning it up a bit and hacking a thermostat into it?

 

[Airgead]

Yep. If it still works it could make a good fermentation fridge.

The sponsors sell pretty good temp controllers as well.

 

[Jordansr]

Sponsors?

 

[fraser_john]

if you brew from juice you don't have to be so seasonal but then you have the challenge of maintaining a low temp.

Fermenting from juice(e.g. Aldi, Costco), especially pasteurised, means little(none?) chance of getting a malo fermentation which will smooth out the malic acid content of the juice.

 

[Crouch]

Sponsors?

These are commonly retailers who support the site and in turn many of us shop with them ... they are generally called sponsors.

I'd also agree that keeping it simple and not worrying about adjuncts at this stage, just do the regular kit by itself. Look up some threads on STC1000's also, these are temperature controlling units that can be rigged up to your fridge that control the temperature inside ... either switching on the fridge when the temperature increases above your set point, or switching on a heater when it drops below. I brewed for years before actually worrying too much about temperature control, perhaps that's why my beers were never very good

Good luck, have fun and welcome to the rabbit hole.

 

[burrster]

A fair bit has already been said so I may repeat some of it. Firstly My personal experience with the black rock cider kit was not so good. If your going to ferment this kit, I'd recommend putting a few extra litres of apple juice in with it(4 - 6), at a minimum, for extra flavour. forget the honey as it won't add much, and will add to the cost. Leave the cinnamon out until you know what it's like without it. AS long as your adding apple juice stick to dextrose as your sugar addition, it's clean fermenting, and leaves no unwanted taste.

Don't try for High alcohol just yet just keep it simple until you have a good technique. I know you've just turned 18 but most of us here prefer to drink a few brews, rather than just one, that knocks you out. based on this, stick with the kit yeast until you've got your technique.

Sweetness is easiet acheived(with best taste results) IMO, by adding extra juice to your glass when you drink your cider

Carb drops are a good easy way to start. I find bulk priming is me prefered method, again once you've got the hang of brewing.

Store the vessel in a place where it will stay as close to 20 degrees as you can.

Assuming a good temperature for the days your away,its fine to leave unattended.

Airgead best explained the high reason why we don't brew at higher temperatures.

Learn about sanitation, This is key in producing good, consistent results.

Learn about yeast re hydration too, as I believe this reduces unwanted flavours.

As soon as your able, get the temperature controller and rig it to your fridge, you won't ever regret it, as Temp control is a large factor in the quality of your brew.

If your looking for a semi decent kit cider, I like the Mangrove Jacks range, and have had far better luck with them, but they do cost more.

 

[indica86]

Sweetening home cider is VERY difficult.
You need to search for a yeast that leaves residual sugar/ fruit flavour.
I have used http://vintnersharvest.com/products/vintners-harvest-wine-yeast-sn9 with success.
The other options are artificial/ non fermentable sweeteners/ sugars or crash chilling and kegging.

The Blackrock kit is great, bin the yeast and get something better.
They drink very well after sometime in the bottle.

 

[Jordansr]

Thanks again for all the advice, I just thought of another question... Around the forum a lot of people seem to advocate lower temperatures to avoid ester production, which coincides with what everybody has said ^ above about unwanted metabolic by-products etc. so that's all good... But aren't esters the aroma molecules that provide the scents of other fruits and foods in the cider (Like they do citrus (For example) notes in wine)? Or is it rather that esters are produced at all temperatures, but the esters produced at higher temperatures are unattractive?

 

[manticle]

Mostly about the balance and amount. Additinally other unpleasant and headache inducing compounds are encouraged at high temperatures.

 

[MrChoat]

Thanks again for all the advice, I just thought of another question... Around the forum a lot of people seem to advocate lower temperatures to avoid ester production, which coincides with what everybody has said ^ above about unwanted metabolic by-products etc. so that's all good... But aren't esters the aroma molecules that provide the scents of other fruits and foods in the cider (Like they do citrus (For example) notes in wine)? Or is it rather that esters are produced at all temperatures, but the esters produced at higher temperatures are unattractive?

Ester profiles depend on a lot of things. In some beers, like Belgians, the strain of yeast can be fermented at a higher temp for the flavours that particular strain produces. As an example, Belgian abbey produces banana flavours around 25c, but clove flavours around 20c. Other yeasts leave very little flavour of their own.

Citrus and other flavours are mostly derived from hop additions in beers. A lot of ales and ciders will have the flavour profile from the ingredients rather than relying on the yeast to make those flavours.

For ciders, you are using a clean fermenting yeast to let the flavours naturally in the apples come through. Different yeasts have different flavour profiles that they will produce at different temperatures. This is all information you can deal with down the track.

For now, do what these guys recommend. Follow the instructions on the kit. If you want to use honey, bottle half the batch with honey in place of priming sugar or carbonation drops and see the difference that makes.

 

[Jordansr]

So I started the cider with just the simple method and some tea because on a few of the other posts people recommend tea for tannins. About 8 hours later the surface was covered in a really fine foam of bubbles, but I went to sleep and woke up and the foam was gone, and there were just really fine bubbles rising to the surface of the cider. A little concerned, because in some of the photos I've seen there have been really thick layers of foam, and there hasn't been much airlock "activity" so to speak, or if there has been it hasn't been frequent enough for me to witness, but rather I have noticed the water levels in the airlock bubbles changing. Is something wrong or is it all good?