Fermented Much Too High

[ballzac]

Hey guys,

I just put down an AG weizen, using Wyeast wiehenstephan weizen 3068. I don't have any fermentation control, and usually time it pretty carefully to ferment within a couple of degrees of ideal temp. I pitched at 24 degrees, hoping that it would be down to about 21 pretty quickly (17 would be ideal, but until I have ferment temp control, there's not a lot I can do), as the ambient temperature was quite low and I usually get it right. Anyway, I got up this morning and the temperature was 30 degrees. I can only assume that the yeast created a lot more heat than other yeasts I have used. Anyway, it has almost finished already, haha, and although it doesn't actually taste that bad, it has quite a strong banana flavour. I have had a slight banana flavour in other ales that I've had brew SLIGHTLY high, and it has dissapated over two to three weeks in secondary, but as this is quite strong, and the weizen is quite pale, I'm a bit concerned that it may still be strong in the final product.

I have some curacao peel, and I was thinking that adding that along with some coriander to the secondary might help disguise the flavour a bit, but I was also worried that there is a chance it may really clash. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions. I'm sure it will be quite pleasant to drink no matter what, but I made about ten gallons of it, and I would like it to be as good as possible. Thanks people.

 

[Inge]

I don't know what 3068 is like for creating fusels...

Once I had a pale ale go up to 28 in the fermentation fridge because the power to the fridge cut out. The beer ended up being so full of fusels there was an oil slick on top of the wort, with a strong solvent smell + taste.

Needless to say, I gave it the arse.

 

[Bribie G]

I did a Morgans Amber Ale with LDME, crystal and fuggles with the intention of something like Newcastle Brown. Being the evening and wanting to get to bed I pitched Safale s04 at a fairly high temp, about 28 IIRC and thought "no probs, it will be down to 20 by the morning" but it stayed mid to high 20s for three days.

After about three weeks in the bottle I cracked a couple and it had a really overpowering twang of nail polish remover. So I just stashed it away and tried a bottle last night - ten weeks in the bottle. It tastes just fine now and the nail polish taste has mellowed to a sort of almost blackcurrant flavour. In a dark brew it doesn't clash too much.

If it were me I would bottle anyway and as an experiment crack bottles at, say, three, six, ten weeks and see if it gets any better.

 

[white.grant]

3068 is a vigorous bugger, but oh so lovely :icon_drool2: .

At 30 degrees I'm surprised that it didn't jump out of the fermenter and start picking fights with passersby.
The Banana will fade over time, so if you like the way it tastes out of the fermenter it will improve, but probably never win you any gold medals so you may as well bottle it. I wouldn't add any other flavours to it though, weizens shouldn't be confused with wits, and unless you want a fruit salad effect its probably not going to make it any better.

cheers

grant

 

[Screwtop]

Hey guys,

I just put down an AG weizen,

it has quite a strong banana flavour.

Good

it has dissapated over two to three weeks in secondary, but as this is quite strong, and the weizen is quite pale, I'm a bit concerned that it may still be strong in the final product.

Pity you didn't drink it young and fresh as Weizens are meant to be consumed

I have some curacao peel, and I was thinking that adding that along with some coriander to the secondary might help disguise the flavour a bit, but I was also worried that there is a chance it may really clash. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions.

Yes, don't be silly

At 30 degrees I'm surprised that it didn't jump out of the fermenter and start picking fights with passersby.
The Banana will fade over time, so if you like the way it tastes out of the fermenter it will improve, but probably never win you any gold medals so you may as well bottle it. I wouldn't add any other flavours to it though, weizens shouldn't be confused with wits, and unless you want a fruit salad effect its probably not going to make it any better.

OMFG



Honestly, how's about you all doing a search on the style guidelines for a Weizen, maybe also a HefeWeizen

 

[buttersd70]

Been thinking of getting some of this yeast and breaking my Heffe cherry, so clarification would be good....

Isn't this particular yeast used specifically because it does produce banana? And don't some brewers using this yeast deliberately stress it then brew hot (mid 20's) in order to intentionally produce as much of the banana and bubblegum as they can get out of it?

Edit. Clarification. . No pun intended.

 

[white.grant]

Been thinking of getting some of this yeast and breaking my Heffe cherry, so clarification would be good....

Isn't this particular yeast used specifically because it does produce banana? And don't some brewers using this yeast deliberately stress it then brew hot (mid 20's) in order to intentionally produce as much of the banana and bubblegum as they can get out of it?

Edit. Clarification. . No pun intended.

Hi Butters,

3068 can produce banana, it can also produce clove. IMHO, though Screwy might want to disagree , good weizens balance the banana and clove esters (along with the wheat/malt charateristics) to create a fabulous beer.

Banana tends to happen when fermentation temps get away from you and ramp up with yeast activity, a number of sources recommend a fermentation temperature of 17 degrees to produce the appropriate balance of flavours, and my experience with 3068 supports this.

Some brewers do stress the yeast in various ways to create over the top flavours, 3068 can do some crazy things, but they are departing from the style. If you drink couple of commercial examples you'll get the idea.

cheers

grant

 

[buttersd70]

Cheers Grant.Good to know. When I eventually tear myself away from English, I'll give one a crack.

 

[ballzac]

At 30 degrees I'm surprised that it didn't jump out of the fermenter and start picking fights with passersby.

It's in a sixty litre fermenter. About forty litres of wort, and twenty litres of kreausen

Pity you didn't drink it young and fresh as Weizens are meant to be consumed

Sorry, I was talking about a brown ale that I did.

Isn't this particular yeast used specifically because it does produce banana? And don't some brewers using this yeast deliberately stress it then brew hot (mid 20's) in order to intentionally produce as much of the banana and bubblegum as they can get out of it?

In "brewing classic styles" he states that 17 is ideal. Mid twenties is one thing, 30 is a whole other ballgame. Is it meant to taste like it has a bag of banana lollies dropped in it?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

It's in a sixty litre fermenter. About forty litres of wort, and twenty litres of kreausen


Sorry, I was talking about a brown ale that I did.


In "brewing classic styles" he states that 17 is ideal. Mid twenties is one thing, 30 is a whole other ballgame. Is it meant to taste like it has a bag of banana lollies dropped in it?

A bag of banana lollies isn't so far out of style - As mentioned above, Hefeweizens come with two main flavours - banana from esters and a phenolic flavour that usually comes across as cloves (although not everyone perceives it as cloves) Traditionally a cooler fermentation will favour a beer with a clove bias to its taste and a warmer one will give you a more ester driven drop.

But - there is a hell of a lot of spread in the commercial examples. For me the classic German Hefes that illustrate either end of the scale without going off into ridiculous out of balance territory are:

Schofferhofer - All about the banana lollies
Schneider - All about the Cloves
Weihenstephan - A nice balance of the two

Worth a trip to the local Dan Murphy or other good bottle'o' to try all three side by side.

If yours is so over the top that its undrinkable... time will help fade the esters, but as the banana fades, you might start to taste some other things that could have been pumped out by the yeast when they were at 30 - the bananas might well be preferable

TB

 

[ballzac]

Thanks for all the help people. It's actually mellowed a bit and tastes quite nice. I'll try those three hefeweizens that you mention TB. I think I just freaked out because people place so much emphasis on temperature, and 30 is way higher that anything that I've fermented before.

 

[Nick JD]

I found this paper written by some white-coat brewers from the Centre for Malting and Brewing Science in Leuven, Belgium.

It gets a little bit chemically, but there's some interesting stuff in there about esters and their fruitiness. :blink: They have some interesting stuff to say about the sg and the sugar profile affecting ester production:

Worts with more glucose and fructose produce more esters than those with more maltose. High-gravity brewing makes more esters.

And temperature: 40-50% increase in ester formation when wort was raised from 10 to 16 degrees. The fruity and rose esters are made at 20 degrees, aniseed and bananas are made around 15 degrees. Temperature profile over the brew influences ester production.

Now, how does one get a job at the Centre for Malting and Brewing Science, I wonder?