Faux Lager

[QIK86]

I want to make kind of a fake lager or pilsener. Something with a lager style kit and hops, but with an ale yeast, due to the current QLD climate.

Does anyone have any suggestions on kits/yeast/hops? Actually, could I first have hops suggestions, as I'll have to order them asap.

I want to use a kit for the initial bittering to avoid any super long boils and to have a base to work from. Other than that, I'm open to ideas.

A couple of my favourites in the style would be Wicked Elf Pilsener and Budějovick Budvar, if that helps at all with hops suggestions.

 

[sumo]

I want to make kind of a fake lager or pilsener. Something with a lager style kit and hops, but with an ale yeast, due to the current QLD climate.

Does anyone have any suggestions on kits/yeast/hops? Actually, could I first have hops suggestions, as I'll have to order them asap.

I want to use a kit for the initial bittering to avoid any super long boils and to have a base to work from. Other than that, I'm open to ideas.

A couple of my favourites in the style would be Wicked Elf Pilsener and Budějovick Budvar, if that helps at all with hops suggestions.

Yeah QIK86

You need to consider santiation etc, so my advise needs to be taken with that in mind....

How about a Brewcraft Premium Imported Czech Pilsner kit, with Saaz (Czech) hops and S-05 ale yeast. Ferment it at 15 - 18C which should keep the esters down?

Use a can of unhopped pale liquid malt for a 15 - 30 min boil (7 litres ish) with the hops, then put that into fermenter with the kit can, add cold water to 21 - 23 litres. Cool it to 20 - 25C and throw in your yeast etc.

Not sure on how close it is to your tastes, but it is a fake!

 

[buttersd70]

not familiar with wicked elf, but budvar is saaz throughout, I believe. For the kit, go with something thats relatively neutral in its flavour to start with, and then boil it to remove any flavour it may have. Haven't used it myself, but BribieG swears by the coopers canadian for this purpose.

For the yeast...thats a little harder. Obviously an ale yeast won't give lager characteristics, so you would probably be best off with something thats reasonably neutral itself. Never done a faux lager with it, but US05 would be worth considering. Unless you want to go with wyeast california lager...its a true lager yeast but is fermented at higher temps (14-20C)

Particularly suited for producing 19th century-style West Coast beers. Retains lager characteristics at temperatures up to 65 F, (18 C) and produces malty, brilliantly clear beers. This strain is not recommended for cold temperature fermentation.

Never used this one myself, but I like the sound of it.

EDIT - how low do you think you can actually get the temp?

 

[Fermented]

I've heard that the Muntons Gold yeasts can take higer temps 22-30C without getting fruity and silly tasting, let alone the other technical side effects.

If anyone else can verify then it maybe good for QIK86's plans.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Bribie G]

I have made a couple of fake pilseners so far. Recipe as follows:

Tin of Canadian, Morgans or Coopers. It's very pale and not much hop so a good filler
Minimash of 1 kg pale lager grain malt (I used the UK one from Ross) and 250g carapils in the mash.
One and a half kilos of LDME

In the boil:

20g of Green Bullet flowers or German Perle flowers for an hour (bittering)
15g of Saaz B for 20 mins
15g of Saaz B for 5 mins

Nottingham ale yeast.

They have turned out nice, about Stella Strength and Saazy in flavour and the minimash gives the aftertaste of real grain malt.

I rack to secondary for a couple of days then chill, gelatine fine, then polyclar.

I did a similar one with two kilos of malt in the minimash and no carapils. It turned out a bit funky in flavour and I think I let it get too hot, even with the ale yeast. Second hand brewing fridge required I think, QIK, mate.

Edit: following the disappointing one I went back to the one kilo mash and kept it below 22 using frozen bottles and beach towel, and bottled it a few days ago. This is what it looked like on bottling day ... can't resist posting this picture a second time:

 

[QIK86]

I've decided on Saaz hops. But which variety? Czech, D Saaz, Motueka (B Saaz), Summer Saaz?

Damn Craftbrewer and their huge range!

 

[QIK86]

Butters, I'm struggling to get temps below 22C at the moment with the fermenter on the kitchen bench, surrounded by ice bottles and a wet towel. I can get an old not working fridge from my brother that I may gut and try out with more frozen bottles. I've actually got a frozen 15 litre cube from a fresh wort kit waiting in the freezer for this purpose. Hopefully it will work well.

So for yeast, I'll most likely use US-05 for this one, as I'm not sure how effective the old fridge idea will be, but may look into the Wyeast California Lager yeast if I do another one.

What about malt? Will generic old LHBS chinese container liquid light malt extract be too dark for this one? Hopefull not, as they don't stock the brand name unhopped malt extract cans which come in a much greater range (Extra pale, pale, light, etc). I could also switch to LDME, but would face a similar problem I guess..

 

[seemax]

Morgan's Extra Pale is very good for extract lagers. The no name cans will be ok, they just wont be light. Maybe mail order some dry malt?

I've tried both US-05 and Nottingham and both do well at low temps, however the Nottingham at 14C is very good, crisp, not that far from a lager. Infact it's less fruity than S-23 at 12C !!

My favourite hops for pils are Czech Saaz and Hallertau for flavour/aroma.

I would do something like 2-2.5kg LME, 200g carapil and a hop boil of Saaz up to 35IBU. If that works out, then you experiment with other grains. Better yet, do a 5kg mash using BIAB (brew in a bag)!

 

[buttersd70]

I can get an old not working fridge from my brother that I may gut and try out with more frozen bottles. I've actually got a frozen 15 litre cube from a fresh wort kit waiting in the freezer for this purpose. Hopefully it will work well.

That will actually work really really well. a solid 10-15 kg ice block in a dead fridge is basically the same thing as was used in the past for refrigeration...hence the name that a lot of americans still use for the fridge...the ice chest. Think about how long it takes to defrost a freezer, even on a hot day, if you don't open the doors up....

What about malt? Will generic old LHBS chinese container liquid light malt extract be too dark for this one? Hopefull not, as they don't stock the brand name unhopped malt extract cans which come in a much greater range (Extra pale, pale, light, etc). I could also switch to LDME, but would face a similar problem I guess..

So, it might be a bit darker than 'style'. Big woop imho. It will still taste fine.

If using the us05, see if you can skim an extra couple of degrees down to 20, but if you can't, don't worry overly much about it. Leave it on the yeast cake for a few days after fermentation is finished to give it plenty of time to clean itself up, and all will be good.

 

[warra48]

Wicked Elf is 100% Saaz, so that's the hop to go for if I was doing it.

I like both US05 and Nottingham, both are quick and clean fermenting, but Notts will work at a lower temperature than US05, as my experience is that US05 tends to want to go to sleep at under 18C. Either will work fine at the sort of temperatures you are looking at.

I'd leave it in the fermenter for a couple of weeks, and if you can rack it and cold condition it for another couple of weeks you should have a good clear beer.

 

[Hefty]

I can get an old not working fridge from my brother that I may gut and try out with more frozen bottles. I've actually got a frozen 15 litre cube from a fresh wort kit waiting in the freezer for this purpose.

I can vouch for the fact that this will work. My last three brews have all been fermented in a fridge with a broken compressor (one still going). I just got them to pitching temp, pitched the yeast and then sat them in the bottom of the fridge with 2 x 1.25L bottles of ice, one touching each side. By the time the yeast has really taken hold they have all been sitting pretty much spot on 18*C, even at current midday temperatures.
I changed the ice bottles in the evening one time and when I came to check it in the morning it was at about 15*C!

Cheers!
Jono.

 

[QIK86]

Cheers Warra.

Czech Saaz is ordered. Now how much to add and how long to boil? (AA 4.0%)

So far...
1.7kg can Coopers Canadian Blonde
2kg Liquid Light Malt Extract
Czech Saaz Hops (AA 4.0%)
US-05 yeast

Will try to ferment at around 18-20C. And I'll dry hop in primary when fermentation is almost finished and leave for a further week. Might even get myself a cube and try cold conditioning this one. If I do, whats the procedure come bottling time? Bring the cube back to room temp before bulk priming and bottling?

 

[QIK86]

I can vouch for the fact that this will work. My last three brews have all been fermented in a fridge with a broken compressor (one still going). I just got them to pitching temp, pitched the yeast and then sat them in the bottom of the fridge with 2 x 1.25L bottles of ice, one touching each side. By the time the yeast has really taken hold they have all been sitting pretty much spot on 18*C, even at current midday temperatures.
I changed the ice bottles in the evening one time and when I came to check it in the morning it was at about 15*C!

Cheers!
Jono.

Damn, sounds like I might even be able to brew a true lager in there with enough ice bottles!

 

[Bribie G]

QIK, here's my arrangement that I posted on another thread recenty. Freeze as many 2L PET as necessary, place fermenter on concrete floor, arrange PETs around fermenter, wrap in large beach towel and enclose all in a laminated foam shiny windscreen protector thingy from Supercheap auto. Three PETs have kept my Yorkshire Bitter at 22 for a week, changing over morning and evening. If you have enough freezer space to produce the frozen bottles, no further hard work required.




Edit: I'm looking at the idea of getting a smaller fridge cardboard carton that they come in and lining that, maybe doing a permanent lining job with slabs of coolite cut from those broccoli boxes or something. Lift up and pop back on. Your local Retravision or whoever would surely be glad to get rid of one. Recently took delivery of the new kitchen fridge and cheerfully said "Thanks for taking the box and packing, saves me a trip to the dump ... "
bugger buggger bugger <_< <_<

 

[QIK86]

Thats almost identical to what I've been doing Bribie, with the exception of the sun shade. Just getting too hot now though, even for that, so I'm going to switch to the old broken fridge idea for this next brew.

 

[warra48]

Cheers Warra.

Czech Saaz is ordered. Now how much to add and how long to boil? (AA 4.0%)

So far...
1.7kg can Coopers Canadian Blonde
2kg Liquid Light Malt Extract
Czech Saaz Hops (AA 4.0%)
US-05 yeast

Will try to ferment at around 18-20C. And I'll dry hop in primary when fermentation is almost finished and leave for a further week. Might even get myself a cube and try cold conditioning this one. If I do, whats the procedure come bottling time? Bring the cube back to room temp before bulk priming and bottling?

The Coopers Canadian Blonde has an IBU of 420, so if you are doing a 23 litre brew you already have 420 divided by 23 giving you a base of 18.3 IBU's.
Putting that into BeerSmith, it tells me that to get to an IBU of around 40, which I think is about right for a BoPils, you need to add 40 gr of Saaz and boil with the light extract for 60 minutes. Then add the kit at flameout, and go from there about chilling etc etc.

Why not download the trial version of BeerSmith and see for yourself? It allows you to save 3 recipes before it asks you to buy. Well worth it.

 

[QIK86]

Just had another thought..

What about leaving out the LLME and instead using another can of Coopers Canadian Blonde to give more initial IBU, along with a shorter boil to give flavour and aroma? I'd rather avoid 60min boils until I'm ready to scrap the kits all together and go all extract doing all of my own hopping.

For which I would need something like BeerSmith.

Which I don't yet have.

 

[Bribie G]

A toucan of blonde / Canadian would probably make a brilliant brew with additional Saaz flavour and aroma hops. Maybe with some Carapils as well for extra grain flavour, 'body' and head retention.

There was a thread a couple of months ago on using kits to provide the bittering 'for free' as opposed to using malt extract which is virtually the same price, or more expensive, than a can of goo.

Haven't made a Canadian toucan because you are starting to look at over thirty bucks by the time you finish, but my toucan plain ol Coopers Lagers on special, yielding a $19 brew have turned out very drinkable indeed.

I'd go for it.

The other advantage is that you know you are going to get a nice golden coloured faux lager - a couple of my brews using LDME have turned out more like an English Bitter in colour which I don't mind particularly but if you are after the lager colour then go toucan in this case.

 

[buttersd70]

The IBU varies depending on the gravity, in order to maintain the balance...for Budvar, it's actually a lot lower than you would think. (its one of the only lagers I actually like)

I have it on good authority (DrSmurto ) that for 1050 OG, you're looking at 31IBU, which is 62% BUGU. (assuming, that is, that you want a Budvar style. I haven't brewed one yet, even though I have the right yeast for it, but from drinking Budvar, I'd have to say he's right. It's certainly not what I would call particularly bitter). Personally, I'd go for anything from 62 to 70% BUGU.

Just to bring up something warra said (before someone else does, without qualifying their assertions), technically, dividing the coopers IBU by volume is not correct....however, I agree that this is the best way to do it. If you work it out with a correct dillution formula, (the way Coopers do) it over-estimates the bitterness by a considerable amount imho. For any volume of 17-25L, I've found through trial and error that the straight division by volume, as suggested by warra, gives a much closer representation that the technically correct formula does.

Qik, if you go with the toucan, I don't think that will give you enough room to move with the IBU in order to get the hop flavour in there as well, without it becoming too bitter. Just my 2c.

 

[QIK86]

Steeping grains is something I'd like to give a go actually Bribie. I was almost going to get a kg of some sort of "steepable" grain as part of my Craftbrewer order today, but didn't know which sort to get..

Anyway, if I do go with the Canadian Toucan, what sort of hop schedule would you recommend for a 15-20min boil?

Edit: Just read your post Butters. What would you recommend? Same as Warra, or a slightly shorter boil to add a few less IBU?