Extracts To Ag

[Dazza_devil]

G'day Brewers,
I'm down to my last 4kgs of LDME and seriously contemplating the move to AG.
What improvements in my beer can I expect from this move, if I do it correctly.
How will the taste change and what other changes in the end product will result?
Cheers

 

[manticle]

I recently made the move and if you have your processes down pat (I mean sanitation, fermentation, recipe development etc) and you can problem solve/lateral think then there is a marked improvement. Actually I went from doing 3kg grain bill partials to AG and I still reckon there was a massive improvement. You have to be brewing good beer first though.

The main thing I've noticed is better attenuation which in turn leads to better balanced brews. Most of my extracts finished around 1018 - 1020 and some even higher which means slightly too sweet beer. My AGs tend more towards 1010-1012.

Also grain tastes nicer than syrup (much as I love syrup).

 

[raven19]

If you are seriously contemplating AG you definately wont regret it.

Improvements will be large, and mostly having the pleasure of converting grains and hops to tasy beer.

You will experience more flavour, flexibility in recipes, change in bitterness levels, etc.

It is a slippery but mighty fun slope imo! :icon_cheers:

 

[marlow_coates]

I agree with manticle's statements.

I also found a marked difference in 'freshness' with AG. Not sure if that is a good way to describe it, but just how it tastes to me. Even beers left in the keg for months taste 'fresh' and 'full of life' compared to extract counterparts.

The other thing I love is the complexity, and flexibility with recipes.
So many recipes call for a number of grains, that unfortunately cannot always be found in extract form, and if they can it is usually expensive or not useful in terms of quantities wanted.

You won't regret the move to AG IMHO.

Marlow

 

[petesbrew]

I haven't really done any extract beers, mostly kits & bits. But the 6 or so AG's I've done so far are so damn awesome.
Posting my recipe's here for criticism has definitely helped. And mates in the Hills Brewers Guild have helped out with gear & grain cracking.

 

[buttersd70]

I brewed a lot of extracts before I moved to AG. Personally, I skipped partials, because I felt comfortable with the processes involved (I later revisited partials, and believe that you can brew excellent beer this way. But imo, partials are actually more effort than full AG. At least with my equipment).

Manticles points are excellent....for the difference to be noticable, you need to be brewing good beer to start with.

If you really want to taste the difference....take an extract recipe that you've done and are familiar with. Preferably one that uses just pale lme/ldme, some spec malts, and a fairly simple hop schedule. Use the spec malts in the same weight, and replace the lme/ldme with enough plain pilsner or ale malt (or if its an English style, use an english base malt, like maris otter or golden promise, etc) to give you the same OG....for the hops, use the same weights as your extract recipe for any late additions, and just adjust your 60 min addition to give you the same IBU you were achieving with the extract. Ferment it at the same temp, with the same yeast.....

then you can compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You will have the same beer as your extract version that you are familiar with, but with a base malt in place of pale extract. The differences should stand out like dogs wotsits.

Then you can start rebuilding the grain bill to include proportions of other malt varieties, if you choose to do so, to add more complexity, or to change the beer entirely. Or you can move on to some beers that you may not have been able to do, because extract versions of them are just one dimensional.

edit: fyi, manticle, the attenuation difference is likely due to 2 main things...the significantly higher FAN in grain, compared to extract; and secondly, the ability to be able to control fermentability of the wort by mashing at the temp you want, not what the makers of the extract choose to mash at. fwiw, my 2c is that the FAN is probably the more significant of the two.

 

[Dave70]

Ive got my first one bubbling away in the laundry right now, a very simple two grain, one hop bitter. Obviously I havent had a sip yet so I wont crow to loud but all looks well.
The only hiccup I guess was at mash out time when my strike water took longer to get up to temp than I thought. So the mash went about 10min to long.
(Picture a grown man stabing a meat thermometer into two huge pots of water on his cooktop then spinning around to look at the clock, all the while muttering 'come one, come on, for f**k sake!)
Anyway, you get the picture.
Win, loose or draw, it's still the most fun Ive had making beer and for me thats what its all about, theres just something more - erm -'organic' about taking it from the grain to the glass, so to speak. If you can read a clock and a thermometer, its a piece of piss.(no pun intended)..

 

[Nick JD]

All grain tastes like beer made from the smell of crushing grain.

I know that sounds silly, but that's what it tastes like. Grainy.

I even hazard to say that it tastes more like the better commercial beers...

It's not the final taste of the beer that really gets you, but the taste and smell of the ingredients as you brew, IMO. You get to truely know your beer and develop a closer relationship with it.

Your friends might even comment that they like your extract beer better - much to your horror. You know better and that's what matters.

 

[chappo1970]

Agree with sentiments above.

...'fresh' and 'full of life' compared to extract counterparts...

100% agree, it's the freshness and crispness of the flavours and aromas that get me anyway. I now taste commercial beer including mirco's and the taste nice but lifeless except if your lucky enough to be at the brewery sampling from the cellar door IMO. Bottling processes etc seems to blunt it somewhat IMO also imported beers seem to taste a little stale to me.

Anyway go for AG I say.

Chappo

 

[Bribie G]

If you enjoy ales such as UK bitters and milds you won't really get the true flavour from imported bottles of Fullers, Wells Bombardier or Timothy Taylor etc. because, generally, they are pasteurised. Of course there are a few bottle conditioned beers, along the lines of our Coopers, but 99 percent of the time the bottle of UK import is going to taste nothing like as good as a fresh pint hand pulled off the cask. The only way to emulate this is to brew your own AG.

Australians are used to the idea that a bottle of XXXX is really the same as a schooner at the club or a can at the beach because it's all just identical dead pasteurised filtered goop, but you really have to go to the UK to really appreciate what I mean - or get yourself an AG setup :icon_cheers:

 

[buttersd70]

If you enjoy ales such as UK bitters and milds you won't really get the true flavour from imported bottles of Fullers, Wells Bombardier or Timothy Taylor etc. because, generally, they are pasteurised. Of course there are a few bottle conditioned beers, along the lines of our Coopers, but 99 percent of the time the bottle of UK import is going to taste nothing like as good as a fresh pint hand pulled off the cask. The only way to emulate this is to brew your own AG.

Australians are used to the idea that a bottle of XXXX is really the same as a schooner at the club or a can at the beach because it's all just identical dead pasteurised filtered goop, but you really have to go to the UK to really appreciate what I mean - or get yourself an AG setup :icon_cheers:

And in some cases, the difference is even more pronounced...different abv meaning different mash, and in some cases even different yeast for the bottle version vs cask.

 

[Beerbuoy]

Some one here had a picture of Beauty and the Beast for these threads.

I could never imagine anyone going from Ag back to tins of goop.

Its like home made spagetti compared to a tin of Heinz.

Bla Bla Bla.....I could go on forever. Go AG!

P.S. I have never had a beer that tasted grainy?

 

[Nick JD]

P.S. I have never had a beer that tasted grainy?

Stick your head in a sack of grain and breathe in.

 

[starkesbier]

Ive got my first one bubbling away in the laundry right now, a very simple two grain, one hop bitter. Obviously I havent had a sip yet so I wont crow to loud but all looks well.
The only hiccup I guess was at mash out time when my strike water took longer to get up to temp than I thought. So the mash went about 10min to long.
(Picture a grown man stabing a meat thermometer into two huge pots of water on his cooktop then spinning around to look at the clock, all the while muttering 'come one, come on, for f**k sake!)
Anyway, you get the picture.
Win, loose or draw, it's still the most fun Ive had making beer and for me thats what its all about, theres just something more - erm -'organic' about taking it from the grain to the glass, so to speak. If you can read a clock and a thermometer, its a piece of piss.(no pun intended)..

I know you really want things to go just right on your first brew but believe me 10 minutes over on your mash time will do nothing to the taste of the beer and may actually improve your efficiency. I have left my mash in the mash tun for over two hours and noticed no ill effects just a small improvement on my mash efficiency.

For my 2c worth I think that you will not regret the taste difference in your beers even if sometimes you will wonder if 4-6 hours is really worthwhile . But again you will taste the difference in mouthfeel and flavour imho make it worth the effort every time.

 

[manticle]

Stick your head in a sack of grain and breathe in.

Or in your mash tun.

 

[AntCoop]

One thing I have noticed ( I have not done AG yet) is that there is a massive difference between Kit and kilo or Kit and bits with steeping of specialty malts as comparted to full extract brewing with liquid malt with specialty malts and doing your own full hopping. (along with mandatory temperature control with fridge and tempmate).

The results are much smoother bitterness without that isohop harshness and much improved flavor, especially with using a good yeast.

One question I have though is would AG be much better than full fresh liquid hop extract with specialty malts steeped, as the base malt ive been using is Coopers ND standard (medium amber) and is usually less than 30 days from date made(from work).
I would under stand if people use dry extract and have a big improvement to AG, but what about liquid malt that is fresh with steepings?

I might have to get my setup in the shed a bit more broader for AG :lol:

advice or comments appreciated,

Cheers Coops :icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

I went through kits, kits and bits, extract/specialty, partial (with increasing grain bills) and am now doing AG and the difference you have noticed between kits and extract is identifiable in each stage if you are brewing properly.


Whatever you make with AG is only x number of days old (depending on when you crush and when you brew) so freshness (unless you're using 6 year old grain) is always going to come through.

You can make great beer with whatever you have at your disposal but if all things are equal then fresh ingredients and beer made from scratch will almost always win.

 

[altone]

Or in your mash tun.

Not very sanitary mate :lol: but yep, the aroma tells the tale.

 

[manticle]

Not very sanitary mate :lol: but yep, the aroma tells the tale.

It's pre-boil. Sometimes I wash my socks in there at the same time to save water.

 

[Dazza_devil]

One question I have though is would AG be much better than full fresh liquid hop extract with specialty malts steeped, as the base malt ive been using is Coopers ND standard (medium amber) and is usually less than 30 days from date made(from work).
I would under stand if people use dry extract and have a big improvement to AG, but what about liquid malt that is fresh with steepings?

Where do you work? If I could get LME that fresh it would be a real bonus. I wish Woollies sold the unhopped extract.
In Tasmania we are at a disadvantage when it comes to fresh ingredients.
The nearest HBS sells LME thats around 30 days from the useby. If I want LDME in bulk I have to get it from Hobart (over 350kms away) and as far as I know fresh LME doesn't exist in Tassie. Even if I went AG I'de have to travel the 350kms or get the grain sent by courier and it's probably gonna be 10 years old, then I'd have to buy a mill.
I'm a believer that fresh ingredients is the major factor in making good beers.