Efficiency frustration

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jibba02

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I am in the process of my 4th alll grain brew on my new system. Fro the first 3 batches i started with a brewhouse efficiency of 72% Beersmith default. With all brews coming well under Beersmith estimated SG.

For the below brew, i have lowered Beersmith efficiency to 60% and i still undershot by 20 points!!!!
For my current brew (RYE IPA) Beersmith states a pre boil volume of 29.46l (Measured 32l @ 1.012 final running's). Beersmith states pre boil gravity 1.060 (Measured 1.040)
Sparge method was Fly Sparging. Mash temp 66.5. checked with 3 thermometers .
Only thing i have not checked is mash P.H.


Where am i going wrong?
 
What system do you use?

And is the sample you're taking from wort that is well-mixed? (the lower gravity sparge water might be sitting at the top where you're taking the sample from, for example).
 
Some more details of your equipment could help. I mash in an 75lt esky. I have a 55lt Keggle. I boil/heat water in 16lt kettle on the stove. I multi batch sparge until I get a pre boil volume of up to 55lt for a 38lt batch. Basically that's always larger pre boil then Beersmith will estimate.
9 times out of ten I overshoot all Beersmiths estimations. I get higher OG and lower FG, higher ABV. So much so that I have to adjust the potential gravity of the grains I use so that beersmith calculations are close to the results I get. Default potential of grains are usually 1.035 I up that figure to 1.040 and it all works out. That's the opposite of what your getting I don't know if it helps much. I am gradually dabbling in water chemistry that seems to be working too. I don't bother trying to measure mash efficiency but the Beersmith brewhouse measured efficiency are between 70 to 80%.
 
kaiserben said:
What system do you use?

And is the sample you're taking from wort that is well-mixed? (the lower gravity sparge water might be sitting at the top where you're taking the sample from, for example).
It is a 3 keg system gas fired. Yes the wort was well mixed.
 
Fly sparging? Bet you are channeling, rather than rinsing the grains. And what Yob said.

Think about doing a simple full run off first and then a batch sparge to get to your volume, and see how it measures up compared to your fly sparge results.

Also, a mashout to raise the temperature of the mash will probably help your run off and efficiency.
 
Yob said:
Fly sparging too fast?

What are you using to test gravity?
sorry forgot to mention i sparged 30l over 65min. Using a Refrac for measurements
 
warra48 said:
Fly sparging? Bet you are channeling, rather than rinsing the grains.

Think about doing a batch run off and batch sparge to get to your volume, and see how it measures up compared to your fly sparge results.

Also, a mashout to raise the temperature of the mash will probably help your run off and efficiency.
I did a mash out on my first batch and was well under as well :(
 
Just did a gravity check on the spent grains after mixing and letting them steep for 30 min. gravity is only @ 1.014. So channeling while fly sparging doesnt seem to be the issue :(

Grain crush is very fine
 
If you're milling your own, I've found running it through twice at @ 1.1mm with a pre-wetting helped nudge my effeciency up a bit. I'm running a RIMS so it's a balance between getting stuck and effeciency. I also get a consistent 2-3% drop in effeciency with Maris Otter for some reason. With the refrac ( with ATC) I get some pretty wild readings on brew day due to temp variance or evaporization or something else and now just suck up some wort into a 5ml syringe and check the next day. When getting my numbers sorted I took samples of 1st runnings, sparge, pre and post boil to help work out what was what. Try to get @ 100ppm Calcium in your mash as well.

edit: just noticed the rye bit, I've found rye and raw wheat need an extra run or two through the mill by themselves first as they are a bit finer to start with, and some rice hulls too in the mash.
 
seamad said:
edit: just noticed the rye bit, I've found rye and raw wheat need an extra run or two through the mill by themselves first as they are a bit finer to start with, and some rice hulls too in the mash.
yep i put the rye through twice. it come out like course flower
 
for my last 3 brews, the mash eff has been within 0.4% each other. So consistency doesnt seem to be an issue.
 
How long you mashing for? When I changed from 60 to 90min my eff jumped 10-15-20%. I'm fairly green at this too, but that what's irks me about BeerSmith is that it doesn't adjust the eff according to the gravity of the beer. I now expect a lower eff on my higher gravity beers....or I should say a greater eff on my low gravity beers. Pistol Patch wrote a good article somewhere on BIAB eff. Try looking here http://www.biabrewer.info/
 
The heavier (high gravity) beers will always be lower in eff too.
A standard dry Pale is usually good eff. Say OG = 1.045, FG = 1.006 ABV = 5.1%. Maybe just go lighter with your grains you may be surprized to hit similar ABV as a heavier grain bill. Batch sparging allows you to gently stir the grains each time you load it with water. It can releases more sugars.
 
Would it be possible to export your recipe's .bsmx file and attach it to a post see see if there's anything in there that might help?
 
What was your grain bill for the quoted recipe and what was the OG and volume? You overshot your volume which will always give you a lower gravity.
I've entered things incorrectly in Beersmith and got odd results that, on the surface, seemed normal.
 
5.2 kg pale malt
2.14 kg rye malt
.5 caramunich 1
.12kg chocolate

OG 1.050
FV 21.5l
 
To me it sounds like your L:G is way too low, if you are mashing in at 2.5:1 and aiming at a strike temperature of 66.5 I suspect your strike water is so hot it's killing a lot of your enzymes before it cools down enough to activate your Amylase - Your Beta Amylase would be in serious danger. Without doing the calculations I guess your strike water was up around 80-84oC.

You will be exacerbating the problem if you have milled fine as you say above.
with 8+kg in a 23L batch I would be expecting an OG over 1.100.
Try 5kg, cracked medium mashed in at least 3:1 (3.5:1 would be better), should give you a strike water temp around 71-72oC, fine grinds can be very difficult to sparge efficiently.

Back to basics
Mark
 
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