Efficiency frustration

[seamad]

agree with doon
8kg grain @ 2.5L/kg is @ 20L strike water. Say 8L absorption leaves 12L first runnings. You sparged with 30L = 42L preboil.

 

[micblair]

The liquor to grist ratio does come across as being a little on the thick side, however it's within acceptable range (2.5 - 5 L water per 1 kg of grain, Kunze).
Run a starch test before mashing out. It will at least eliminate one variable, i.e. complete conversion of starch. Given the low efficiency, we already suspect this to be true. However, theres a list of about 4 other things which I can think of, including those listed by other users.

1) Measuring equipment calibration (scales and temp. probes)
2) Improper milling (get some feeler gauges, or inspect the grist for >95% cracked grains, the remaining 4-5% should crumble with some agitation)
3) incorrect strike temperature calculation. Note: A very thick mash will be quite insulating. You will still see soluble extract even if you've largely denatured your enzymes, however your fermentability will be low.
4) water composition, would certainly be worthwhile getting a water report, and adjusting within recognised ranges for optimal mash performance.

 

[Barge]

Well, jibba, lots of people here (including several professional and very experienced brewers) have offered you advice; and yet it seems you'd prefer to ignore it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=452XjnaHr1A

 

[jibba02]

agree with doon
8kg grain @ 2.5L/kg is @ 20L strike water. Say 8L absorption leaves 12L first runnings. You sparged with 30L = 42L preboil.

Yep. what i was trying to say didnt come out right. I sparged for 65min and collected a total of 32 -32 litres in boil kettle

 

[jibba02]

3) incorrect strike temperature calculation. Note: A very thick mash will be quite insulating. You will still see soluble extract even if you've largely denatured your enzymes, however your fermentability will be low.

for argument sake. If i were mashing at too high temp, say 80 degrees. Would i still get full conversion? All be it unfermentable sugars?

 

[MHB]

No you would have killed all (well nearly all) the enzymes
We normally Mash Out at 78oC, a mash out is to stop the enzyme activity and to make the wort more fluid, if we go over 80oC we tend to start to extract too much of the harsh tannins from the husks.
Mark

 

[jibba02]

No you would have killed all (well nearly all) the enzymes
We normally Mash Out at 78oC, a mash out is to stop the enzyme activity and to make the wort more fluid, if we go over 80oC we tend to start to extract too much of the harsh tannins from the husks.
Mark

Thanks

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Too much grain.
$0.02

I think this is normal. I jumped in too hard like, every other newbie all grain brewer trying to make the most mega best beer.
When I settled down a bit I tried to make lower ABV beer and used lesser grain bill. They still turned out at 5%. :huh: Your only 4 brews in its all cool. Record and recap on everything.

 

[jibba02]

im wondering if my temp reading from the middle of the grain bed is a lot cooler than the bottom of the tun where the wort is pulled of and recirculated. On next brew, i will place a temp probe on the outlet and see what it reads.

 

[jibba02]

Too much grain.
$0.02

I think this is normal. I jumped in too hard like, every other newbie all grain brewer trying to make the most mega best beer.
When I settled down a bit I tried to make lower ABV beer and used lesser grain bill. They still turned out at 5%. :huh: Your only 4 brews in its all cool. Record and recap on everything.

Cheers mate. Still loving it, but a little frustrating. Despite all my problems the beer still taste great. just low %

 

[Blind Dog]

Frankly what you are doing isn't working, I would expect better than the sub 50% you are getting, mashing in a bucket wrapped in a towel.
Try going back to basics, a sensible amount of properly cracked grain and a practical L:G will go a long way toward fixing what is wrong.
Turn off the burner and just do a basic brew then introduce 1 change at a time until you identify the problem.
M

What he said.

You'll get there. Also remember Beersmith is a tool not a guru. I'd suggest a basic brew next time, higher grain to water ratio, measuring gravity with a hydrometer as well as the refractometer (never understood why you'd measure something obliquely when you can do it directly). You're still brewing beer

 

[micblair]

for argument sake. If i were mashing at too high temp, say 80 degrees. Would i still get full conversion? All be it unfermentable sugars?

Do a starch test if you really wanted to know.. Remember its a double edge sword. Increase temperature accelerates reaction rates, unfortunately your enzyme stability at this temperature encroaches the same range where it's also denatured. So you will simultaneously accelerated conversion and denaturation. I can't answer which one occurs first. But considering we mash 10C below mash-out temp, this probably answers your question.

 

[Nizmoose]

I dont know if this is an option for you but I'd be tempted to do a batch using BIAB and the full mash volume (greatly increasing your liquor to grist ratio) and seeing if that spikes your efficiency, all you'd need is a bag and less vessels

 

[jibba02]

I dont know if this is an option for you but I'd be tempted to do a batch using BIAB and the full mash volume (greatly increasing your liquor to grist ratio) and seeing if that spikes your efficiency, all you'd need is a bag and less vessels

Great idea. Hopefully get a chance to test on the weekend

 

[jibba02]

First of all, thanks everyone for your input. Ive taken on board everything and now back to basics.

So tonight i conducted a little test as follows.

I made up a mash of JW pale malt with a ratio of 3:1 0.5kg malt, 1.5l water
I used my small Esky / Lunchbox to mash in.

I added boiling water to the esky to warm it up then tipped it out and added 1.5l of strike water @ 70 Degrees
I then added 0.5kg of milled grain. After milling the grain i could not find any whole grains, and husks were in good shape, not shredded to pieces .
The results were as follows.

0min @ 67 Degrees
30min 1.053 @ 66 Degrees
42min 1.057 @ 63.5 Degrees
55min 1.060 @ 63 Degrees
60min 1.060 @ 62 Degrees

After each gravity reading i vigorously stirred the mash.

From what i have read i am still well under first wort SG of 1.085 for a L-G ratio of 3:1

Soooo. I then added the mash back onto the stove top and heated the mash back upto 68 Degrees (not in the esky

I then transferred back to esky and let steep for another 60 min without touching.

After a total of 120min mash time the final gravity was 1.068. Still a little low i think?


Please let me know what you think?

All gravity readings were with a Refractometer. I have just taken a gravity reading with a Hydrometer and it come to 1.066

 

[Barge]

What did you use to measure the s.g.?

Edit: beat me to it. What temp was the hydrometer reading taken at?

 

[seamad]

What water are you using?

 

[jibba02]

What did you use to measure the s.g.?

Edit: beat me to it. What temp was the hydrometer reading taken at?

was @35.5 degrees so with beersmith calculator comes to 1.070

 

[jibba02]

What water are you using?

Was just tap water with nothing added

 

[Barge]

My guess at this stage would be pH. You could repeat the experiment tonight but include an acid rest. Not sure what the best temp would be as I've never done one. Something around 40C sounds about right. Then increase temp to sacc rest, mashout, etc.

 

[jibba02]

My guess at this stage would be pH. You could repeat the experiment tonight but include an acid rest. Not sure what the best temp would be as I've never done one. Something around 40C sounds about right. Then increase temp to sacc rest, mashout, etc.

Cheers. Do you think water treatment would give me an extra 15+ gravity points?

 

[jibba02]

Ill be picking up some Weyermann pale malt on the weekend. Will do the same test with that.

 

[Barge]

Cheers. Do you think water treatment would give me an extra 15+ gravity points?

No idea how much of an improvement you will get, if any. To me it just seems the most likely culprit given the info. More experienced brewers than myself may have a better idea. If you are going to pick up some grain though you should probably consider some pH stabiliser such as
http://craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2538

Might be easier and will definitely take the pH variable out of play.

 

[Mickcr250]

If I were you I would crush really fine and do a biab. I had issues with my efficiency for my first 6-7 batch's until I got milled grain from craftbrewer and my efficiency jumped 15-20 points compared with the grain I was getting from my lhbs. Before this I had tried everything to no avail and wile I know you think you crush is fine just try it really fine as with biab it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[seamad]

yep, run mine through the mill twice, got a decent jump in eff

 

[mfeighan]

Cheers. Do you think water treatment would give me an extra 15+ gravity points?

it sure can, depends on the ph and hardness of your water

 

[jibba02]

Thanks guys. will be getting some ph strips and water treatment. will also try very fine crush.

 

[jibba02]

This is pretty much spot on how my grains looked http://www.rcmodel.com.au/hobbyphoto/home-brew/3.jpg

 

[seamad]

wrt the 5.2 stabilizer, from what I've read ( a long time ago, so maybe incorrect ) is that it works OK if your water is naturally high in carbonates, but not so well with other water profiles. I bought some once but have never used it after reading up on it. I aim for 100ppm Ca in the mash with Ca Chloride or Ca Sulphate ( gypsum), bit easier with my water , which is tank with very low tds.I measure pH with a lab type pH meter, an adjust with acid malt in the grain bill, or lactic acid.

 

[MHB]

Just out of curiosity, what malt have you been using?
Is it possible that it old and slack
Because; yes I agree your gravity should have been higher, around the 1.080+ you mentioned, I get 1.0825 just doing a quick calculation.
Where do you live maybe someone local can provide some information on your water, but I cant believe that any local water supply can be so bad as to knock 12.5-25% out of your mash efficiency (depending on which of your numbers you trust) - and still be classed as potable water under the relevant Australian standards.

Just chew on a bit of your malt, if its nice and crunchy its probably fine, if its doughie and mushy it could be the cause of your problem.
Mark