Efficiency frustration

[jibba02]

I am in the process of my 4th alll grain brew on my new system. Fro the first 3 batches i started with a brewhouse efficiency of 72% Beersmith default. With all brews coming well under Beersmith estimated SG.

For the below brew, i have lowered Beersmith efficiency to 60% and i still undershot by 20 points!!!!
For my current brew (RYE IPA) Beersmith states a pre boil volume of 29.46l (Measured 32l @ 1.012 final running's). Beersmith states pre boil gravity 1.060 (Measured 1.040)
Sparge method was Fly Sparging. Mash temp 66.5. checked with 3 thermometers .
Only thing i have not checked is mash P.H.


Where am i going wrong?

 

[kaiserben]

What system do you use?

And is the sample you're taking from wort that is well-mixed? (the lower gravity sparge water might be sitting at the top where you're taking the sample from, for example).

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Some more details of your equipment could help. I mash in an 75lt esky. I have a 55lt Keggle. I boil/heat water in 16lt kettle on the stove. I multi batch sparge until I get a pre boil volume of up to 55lt for a 38lt batch. Basically that's always larger pre boil then Beersmith will estimate.
9 times out of ten I overshoot all Beersmiths estimations. I get higher OG and lower FG, higher ABV. So much so that I have to adjust the potential gravity of the grains I use so that beersmith calculations are close to the results I get. Default potential of grains are usually 1.035 I up that figure to 1.040 and it all works out. That's the opposite of what your getting I don't know if it helps much. I am gradually dabbling in water chemistry that seems to be working too. I don't bother trying to measure mash efficiency but the Beersmith brewhouse measured efficiency are between 70 to 80%.

 

[Yob]

Fly sparging too fast?

What are you using to test gravity?

 

[jibba02]

What system do you use?

And is the sample you're taking from wort that is well-mixed? (the lower gravity sparge water might be sitting at the top where you're taking the sample from, for example).

It is a 3 keg system gas fired. Yes the wort was well mixed.

 

[warra48]

Fly sparging? Bet you are channeling, rather than rinsing the grains. And what Yob said.

Think about doing a simple full run off first and then a batch sparge to get to your volume, and see how it measures up compared to your fly sparge results.

Also, a mashout to raise the temperature of the mash will probably help your run off and efficiency.

 

[jibba02]

Fly sparging too fast?

What are you using to test gravity?

sorry forgot to mention i sparged 30l over 65min. Using a Refrac for measurements

 

[jibba02]

Fly sparging? Bet you are channeling, rather than rinsing the grains.

Think about doing a batch run off and batch sparge to get to your volume, and see how it measures up compared to your fly sparge results.

Also, a mashout to raise the temperature of the mash will probably help your run off and efficiency.

I did a mash out on my first batch and was well under as well

 

[jibba02]

Just did a gravity check on the spent grains after mixing and letting them steep for 30 min. gravity is only @ 1.014. So channeling while fly sparging doesnt seem to be the issue

Grain crush is very fine

 

[seamad]

If you're milling your own, I've found running it through twice at @ 1.1mm with a pre-wetting helped nudge my effeciency up a bit. I'm running a RIMS so it's a balance between getting stuck and effeciency. I also get a consistent 2-3% drop in effeciency with Maris Otter for some reason. With the refrac ( with ATC) I get some pretty wild readings on brew day due to temp variance or evaporization or something else and now just suck up some wort into a 5ml syringe and check the next day. When getting my numbers sorted I took samples of 1st runnings, sparge, pre and post boil to help work out what was what. Try to get @ 100ppm Calcium in your mash as well.

edit: just noticed the rye bit, I've found rye and raw wheat need an extra run or two through the mill by themselves first as they are a bit finer to start with, and some rice hulls too in the mash.

 

[jibba02]

edit: just noticed the rye bit, I've found rye and raw wheat need an extra run or two through the mill by themselves first as they are a bit finer to start with, and some rice hulls too in the mash.

yep i put the rye through twice. it come out like course flower

 

[jibba02]

for my last 3 brews, the mash eff has been within 0.4% each other. So consistency doesnt seem to be an issue.

 

[user 25501]

How long you mashing for? When I changed from 60 to 90min my eff jumped 10-15-20%. I'm fairly green at this too, but that what's irks me about BeerSmith is that it doesn't adjust the eff according to the gravity of the beer. I now expect a lower eff on my higher gravity beers....or I should say a greater eff on my low gravity beers. Pistol Patch wrote a good article somewhere on BIAB eff. Try looking here http://www.biabrewer.info/

 

[Danscraftbeer]

The heavier (high gravity) beers will always be lower in eff too.
A standard dry Pale is usually good eff. Say OG = 1.045, FG = 1.006 ABV = 5.1%. Maybe just go lighter with your grains you may be surprized to hit similar ABV as a heavier grain bill. Batch sparging allows you to gently stir the grains each time you load it with water. It can releases more sugars.

 

[antiphile]

Would it be possible to export your recipe's .bsmx file and attach it to a post see see if there's anything in there that might help?

 

[jibba02]

Bloody ****. i cant upload anything :huh:

 

[TheWiggman]

What was your grain bill for the quoted recipe and what was the OG and volume? You overshot your volume which will always give you a lower gravity.
I've entered things incorrectly in Beersmith and got odd results that, on the surface, seemed normal.

 

[jibba02]

5.2 kg pale malt
2.14 kg rye malt
.5 caramunich 1
.12kg chocolate

OG 1.050
FV 21.5l

 

[jibba02]

According to this http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=298742
My pre sparge gravity should have been 1.099. as i had a ratio of 2.5l liquor per kg malt.

There is the 20 points i am missing, a my pre sparge gravity was only 1.080 .....

 

[MHB]

To me it sounds like your L:G is way too low, if you are mashing in at 2.5:1 and aiming at a strike temperature of 66.5 I suspect your strike water is so hot it's killing a lot of your enzymes before it cools down enough to activate your Amylase - Your Beta Amylase would be in serious danger. Without doing the calculations I guess your strike water was up around 80-84oC.

You will be exacerbating the problem if you have milled fine as you say above.
with 8+kg in a 23L batch I would be expecting an OG over 1.100.
Try 5kg, cracked medium mashed in at least 3:1 (3.5:1 would be better), should give you a strike water temp around 71-72oC, fine grinds can be very difficult to sparge efficiently.

Back to basics
Mark