Efficiency according to Brewmate

[jc64]

I'm confused.

I've finished my boil and there's 26.5lt in the kettle. Minus trub, gives me 24lt, minus cooling losses (1lt) gives me 23lt. Why on earth wouldn't I put the whole 23lt into the fermenter? What's left to come out?

No need to be confused, drain your kettle, leave behind the trub and than whatever you have in your fermentor is what it is!

I like to than pour the remaining trub and wort into a graduated jug so I can make a measurement of how much a particular recipe loses to trub. That way I can adjust my loss estimation for say a really hoppy beer vs a stout etc.

 

[Crusty]

I'm confused.

I've finished my boil and there's 26.5lt in the kettle. Minus trub, gives me 24lt, minus cooling losses (1lt) gives me 23lt. Why on earth wouldn't I put the whole 23lt into the fermenter? What's left to come out?

Well why don't you then.
You can ferment on the whole trub if you so desire.
There's been a few trials on this recently & apparently the trub inclusive beers fermented out quicker, finished at a lower gravity & were supposedly crisper than the same wort that was racked off the trub into another fermenter.
I don't do it but others are reporting some surprising results with some side by side tests.



Top left, recipe specs.
We need to produce 23lt of wort ( not clear wort, just total wort ) @1.054 to achieve 80% actual Brewhouse efficiency.
From that 23lt of not clear wort, we will lose 3lt to trub & chiller & an extra 1lt to cooling loss ( 4lt total not going into the cube )
So for this 23lt batch we will get, 20lt into the cube ( crystal clear wort ) + 3lt after cooling loss = 23litres.
If you collected 24lt in total before cooling loss @1.054, you got 80@ efficiency.

This example below is not how you work out Brewhouse efficiency.
If you take out the 3lt of trub & get 20lt into your cube, the programme is now assuming you should of made 23lt @1.054 ( which you did ) but you are now entering ( incorrectly ) the figures for a 20lt batch @1.054. Your efficiency has now diminished to 69% because you were supposed to get 23lt of wort. ( which you did )
The amount of trub will vary depending on the recipe but as long as you add up all the wort you have ( which includes losses ) you have Brewhouse efficiency. 23lt of total wort produced. Do as you wish with the trub, toss it all in if you want, it's still 23lt of wort produced.



BrewMate is asking for you to input your Actual volume in ketlle ( which is volume in the kettle ) it's not trying to determine what you got into the cube or fermenter. Brewhouse efficiency includes all losses so it's the volume you have in the kettle & the gravity that will determine your actual Brewhouse efficiency.

 

[jc64]

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/10/26/brewhouse-efficiency-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

A good explanation of the term brewhouse efficiency.

 

[Kudzu]

Well why don't you then.
You can ferment on the whole trub if you so desire.
There's been a few trials on this recently & apparently the trub inclusive beers fermented out quicker, finished at a lower gravity & were supposedly crisper than the same wort that was racked off the trub into another fermenter.
I don't do it but others are reporting some surprising results with some side by side tests.

But I wouldn't be fermenting on the trub. I had 26.5 litres after the boil, that's my total volume in the kettle. I cool it and loose 1 litre. I then rack 23 litres of clear wort into the fermenter, this leaves 2.5 litres of trub in the kettle. 1 + 23 + 2.5 = 26.5

Whether Brewhouse efficiency is supposed to include total wort after boil or not I have no idea. I think it's quite obvious however that Brewmate considers batch size to be the amount that goes into the fermenter and that "Actual Volume in Kettle" actually means "Actual Volume in Fermenter" Otherwise it should default to the "Wort Volume after Boil" field rather than the "Batch Size" field.

 

[jc64]

But I wouldn't be fermenting on the trub. I had 26.5 litres after the boil, that's my total volume in the kettle. I cool it and loose 1 litre. I then rack 23 litres of clear wort into the fermenter, this leaves 2.5 litres of trub in the kettle. 1 + 23 + 2.5 = 26.5

Whether Brewhouse efficiency is supposed to include total wort after boil or not I have no idea. I think it's quite obvious however that Brewmate considers batch size to be the amount that goes into the fermenter and that "Actual Volume in Kettle" actually means "Actual Volume in Fermenter" Otherwise it should default to the "Wort Volume after Boil" field rather than the "Batch Size" field.

Correct, the link I posted say's your right so I'll go with that.

 

[Crusty]

But I wouldn't be fermenting on the trub. I had 26.5 litres after the boil, that's my total volume in the kettle. I cool it and loose 1 litre. I then rack 23 litres of clear wort into the fermenter, this leaves 2.5 litres of trub in the kettle. 1 + 23 + 2.5 = 26.5

Whether Brewhouse efficiency is supposed to include total wort after boil or not I have no idea. I think it's quite obvious however that Brewmate considers batch size to be the amount that goes into the fermenter and that "Actual Volume in Kettle" actually means "Actual Volume in Fermenter" Otherwise it should default to the "Wort Volume after Boil" field rather than the "Batch Size" field.

It doesn't matter what you rack to the fermenter, you can chuck the whole 26.5lt into the fermenter if you want to.
Measure the gravity of what's in the kettle ( take off 1lt of cooling loss ) so 25.5@ measured SG = ? Put that figure into the Actual volume in kettle & there's your answer.
Let us know what it is.
Batch size is not what's gong into the fermeter, it's what you made including losses.
Rob's wording is a bit confusing.

 

[Kudzu]

I was speaking hypothetically using the numbers from one of the screen shots you (i think it was you posted). You said your batch size was 23l yet the after boil amount indicated 26.5l.

Take this one for example:

Untitled.png


You're saying your batch size is 23l which includes all trub etc, but Brewmate says your after boil volume is 27l. According to you, after boil volume IS the batch size. You don't see the inconsistency?

Maybe this will make it easier, again using your screen grab as the example:


Starting Volume: 33
Loss to Grain: 3
Loss to Evap: 3
Loss to Cooling: 1
Loss to Trub: 3

Final Volume in FV = 33-3-3-1-3
Final Volume in FV = 23

Where does the 20l value come into it? Brewmate considers batch size to be the amount of clear wort that goes into the fermenter. Whether it's the correct way to do it or not I don't know, and I don't really care.

 

[Crusty]

I was speaking hypothetically using the numbers from one of the screen shots you (i think it was you posted). You said your batch size was 23l yet the after boil amount indicated 26.5l.

Take this one for example:

Untitled.png


You're saying your batch size is 23l which includes all trub etc, but Brewmate says your after boil volume is 27l. According to you, after boil volume IS the batch size. You don't see the inconsistency?

Maybe this will make it easier, again using your screen grab as the example:


Starting Volume: 33
Loss to Grain: 3
Loss to Evap: 3
Loss to Cooling: 1
Loss to Trub: 3

Final Volume in FV = 33-3-3-1-3
Final Volume in FV = 23

Where does the 20l value come into it? Brewmate considers batch size to be the amount of clear wort that goes into the fermenter. Whether it's the correct way to do it or not I don't know, and I don't really care.

I wish you would get the term final volume in the fermenter out of your head.
There is nowhere in BrewMate that asks for your final volume into the fermenter.
Your batch size is the total amount of wort you make on the day, ie: ( wort volume after boil, 27lt. )
From that 27lt, you will lose 3lt to trub, 1lt of cooling loss so you will have 23lt, that's your batch size, not fermenter volume, not final volume, it's batch size.
As we have now determined that we should of made a 23lt batch & we have, we can add all this to the fermenter if you want so 23lt of wort @1.054 = 80% efficiency.

Put 23lt into the Actual volume in kettle......23lt
Put Actual Original gravity in it's column....1.054
Actual Brewhouse efficiency is then worked out for you......80%

End of entering any figures. You have made 23lt @1.054 & hit 80% efficiency.
You do not need to then re-enter any figures into the software like how many litres you got into the fermenter or cube, that's where you are getting confused.



His working out his total wort produced which is measured batch size, exactly the same as BrewMate, batch size = 23lt for my example.
He then adds up all his losses, 3lt of trub + 1lt in Braumeister + 1lt in measuring cup + the 22lt in the fermenter & ends up with 27lt total.

 

[jc64]

I think you are both saying the same thing in a different way, that link I posted explains brew-house efficiency clearly.

 

[GuyQLD]

Crusty, just out of curiosity in your latest example above, out of the 23L batch size(after cooling and removal of trub) what wouldn't go in the fermenter?

 

[Kudzu]

Crusty, just out of curiosity in your latest example above, out of the 23L batch size(after cooling and removal of trub) what wouldn't go in the fermenter?

That's what I'd like to know as well. Please don't say the trub.

 

[Crusty]

Crusty, just out of curiosity in your latest example above, out of the 23L batch size(after cooling and removal of trub) what wouldn't go in the fermenter?

The 23lt includes the trub so it's 23lt of total wort.
I got 20lt into the cube.
I then drained the urn & got 4lt of trub & 1lt of this would be cooling loss which doesn't make it to the cube or the fermenter.
20 + 4 - 1 = 23

 

[spudfarmerboy]

Whatever isn't transferred from the kettle to the fermenter is a loss. Because it is a loss it will reduce your "Brewhouse" efficiency.
Its called Brewhouse Efficiency for a reason.

 

[Kudzu]

The 23lt includes the trub so it's 23lt of total wort.
I got 20lt into the cube.
I then drained the urn & got 4lt of trub & 1lt of this would be cooling loss which doesn't make it to the cube or the fermenter.
20 + 4 - 1 = 23

But it doesn't. The 27 litres included the trub, 23 litres is what's left after you remove the trub and the wort's cooled. You said as much yourself. You're counting the trub twice.

 

[jc64]

Spudfarmer is on the money

 

[Parks]

You're counting the trub twice.

This is what was is confusing me.

 

[stm]

But it doesn't. The 27 litres included the trub, 23 litres is what's left after you remove the trub and the wort's cooled. You said as much yourself. You're counting the trub twice.

Exactly. Crusty, you are saying that the 27L includes the trub and the 23L also includes the trub.

 

[nala]

Exactly. Crusty, you are saying that the 27L includes the trub and the 23L also includes the trub.

The original poster of this topic asked : Can someone explain how to use the Brewhouse efficiency in the Brewday worksheet
in BREWMATE.
He did not asked how to calculate efficiency using : PROMASH - BEERSMITH or any other software, he did not ask how forum members calculate efficiency.
Crusty has explained, how to determine the efficiency using the BREWMATE calculator whether anybody likes it or not.
Hopefully Birkdale Bob has got his answer.
Thank you for your patience Crusty.

 

[Parks]

The original poster of this topic asked : Can someone explain how to use the Brewhouse efficiency in the Brewday worksheet
in BREWMATE.
He did not asked how to calculate efficiency using : PROMASH - BEERSMITH or any other software, he did not ask how forum members calculate efficiency.
Crusty has explained, how to determine the efficiency using the BREWMATE calculator whether anybody likes it or not.
Hopefully Birkdale Bob has got his answer.
Thank you for your patience Crusty.

So you understand why Crusty is counting trub twice?

 

[Parks]

I'm not sure but are we getting confused between fermenter trub and kettle trub?