Earth Hour

[rimrunner]

that link i showed you was put together by scientists. they are more educated than us both yet you dismiss them? they are not my personal theories. my personal theory is that climate change happens all the time. even if i think carbon emissions are the cause, the actual threat is mostly hype. storms? rising sea levels? these aren't going to kill millions of people.

as for 2 degrees warmer that link also proved that it's not particularly worrisome. in our recorded history the earth's temperature has been higher than that for extended periods of time. imagining what could happen is not real science. checking the history books and reading accounts of people living in the times that have endured both higher and lower temperatures would be far more productive.

yes we need an actual threat before we do anything. to present i have not seen any sources say we will be in any real danger should the earth warm by 3-5 degrees. if you have some sources that say otherwise please link them. please don't bother if it's storms and sea levels. or desertification.

you say humans survived an ice age? not to be too picky but we are still IN an ice age. the earth has been warmer for far longer than it's been colder. the Cambrian period had the first huge rush of life as we know it. it was 7 degrees hotter and had a CO2 of 4500 PPM!!!! LIFE likes it warmer! life blossomed during the warm millions of years. it grew and moved and evolved to cover every niche it could. don't tell me life will have a hard time. it won't.

in hindsight the chicken little crack was probably not the best line to have in my opening. i do think they are a pain but i can see how it would invite hostility. hostility i can handle, but please make a point during it. if you didn't call me names then why would you think i was referring to you?

 

[bum]

storms? rising sea levels? these aren't going to kill millions of people.

Wait. What? Storms can easily kill a great many people. They can also ravage crops. Reduce people's access to, well, everything due to flooding. Natural disasters are bad. Leaning on the word "natural" doesn't change a god damned thing. Raising sea levels can displace millions of people - where would you have them go? You acknowledge these things as potential outcomes (of a phenomena you seem to wish to deny - which is pretty odd, really) but you dismiss them as actual issues like they don't mean anything. These things (should they occur) will have real and terrible consequences for millions of people.

But, hey, I don't know them so be fucked if I'll turn my AC off.

The issue here is how this will effect Humanity. It isn't Earth that will die off with a slight change in climate. We're the fragile ones. Not sure what the Cambrian period has to do with Mankind, mate.

 

[Dazza_devil]

that link i showed you was put together by scientists. they are more educated than us both yet you dismiss them? they are not my personal theories. my personal theory is that climate change happens all the time. even if i think carbon emissions are the cause, the actual threat is mostly hype. storms? rising sea levels? these aren't going to kill millions of people.

as for 2 degrees warmer that link also proved that it's not particularly worrisome. in our recorded history the earth's temperature has been higher than that for extended periods of time. imagining what could happen is not real science. checking the history books and reading accounts of people living in the times that have endured both higher and lower temperatures would be far more productive.

yes we need an actual threat before we do anything. to present i have not seen any sources say we will be in any real danger should the earth warm by 3-5 degrees. if you have some sources that say otherwise please link them. please don't bother if it's storms and sea levels. or desertification.

you say humans survived an ice age? not to be too picky but we are still IN an ice age. the earth has been warmer for far longer than it's been colder. the Cambrian period had the first huge rush of life as we know it. it was 7 degrees hotter and had a CO2 of 4500 PPM!!!! LIFE likes it warmer! life blossomed during the warm millions of years. it grew and moved and evolved to cover every niche it could. don't tell me life will have a hard time. it won't.

in hindsight the chicken little crack was probably not the best line to have in my opening. i do think they are a pain but i can see how it would invite hostility. hostility i can handle, but please make a point during it. if you didn't call me names then why would you think i was referring to you?

Rimrunner you just aren't reading what I'm saying and putting words in my mouth to support your argument.
I never dismissed what sunspots do, I suggested that other scientists use these sorts of facts to see how human intervention is playing a role. Would they not have to take all other factors into account? Are you suggesting that climate change scientists are idiots?
Almost all previous data collected regarding climate change doesn't account for human impact. It's the future we are worried about here not a time when we didn't exist or didn't have the abilitly or the numbers to severely impact the climate.

I've taken the time to download that video in your link you mentioned which takes some time at dialup speeds. I see you base your whole argument on this one article. Perhaps this is where your judgement is being blinded. The video appears to be making many assumptions, loading selected facts to support a particular side of the argument and failing to account for many other variables. Our impact on the earth will make us more vulnerable to the effects of the sun. There is more to life than carefully selected graphs and figures, we are talking about living things and peoples lives. Assuming our impact on the earth is to remain constant would be a big mistake. It is increasing at an alarming rate.

So you have made some ground then, you do believe CO2 emmissions are a major cause of global warming.
Would you accept that we as a race now emit a huge amount of CO2 into the atmosphere?
Would you accept that we as a race can cut these emmissions and this would have a positive effect on the climate?

I see that you have checked the history books and found that cooler is not going to kills us all and that we have survived an ice age before but you haven't worked out exactly what an ice age is.

Here's one link, just the first I found, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...balwarming.html , it only touches the surface.
Another, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoiding_Dang..._Climate_Change . Another http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008...s.climatechange
The facts are too numerous to ignore. You don't need me to post links, just google climate change, CO2, global warming etc etc. You must have got excited when you found that one article. I must admit that it is a good one and very cleverly disguises the issues. A nice peice of propaganda for the industrialists.

I know we need a threat to do anything but you are saying it's not there at all, many reliable studies would suggest otherwise. I said a profound threat, what does it take? You're reading what you want to hear into my words again.

Bum has already suggested to you that desertification, floods etc can kill many people and their means of survival. The rate of these natural disasters is on the rise, dramatically.
Looking at pre-human history is of no use to us in this case. Unless you want to plunge the whole human race into this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian and see how many survive. "While life prospered in the oceans, the land was barren with nothing more than a microbial 'crud' gracing the soils." Is this the world you like to leave for our descendants? How did your sunspots affect the planet in this period of the planets life as it and life on it was evolving to what we know it as today? Did a sunspot cause this?

As for making a point, I think your statements make a good point. One about your ability to see all the facts and put forward a logical argument.


Did I say you was refering to me about the name calling?

What I am arguing here is that we can do something about dropping the amount of CO2 that we produce and this can have a positive effect on the rates of climate change. We all know climate change happens.
The earth's ecosystems are very delicately balanced and fragile to high ratios of change. We are dependant on these ecosystems to survive as we know it. The earth to me is a beautiful place and worth preserving. At least we can take some steps to minimise our negative impact upon it. Isn't that the least we should do?

As for industy laughing at feeble attempts, I don't think that it will be industry that will be having the last laugh. Regardless, I will continue to make my feeble attempts as an individual while the big industrial money makers laugh but I will feel better as a person for doing so and I can see them for what they really are. F'n environmental vandals.

 

[petesbrew]

But, hey, I don't know them so be fucked if I'll turn my AC off.

Totally couldn't be arsed reading this thread, just skim through for the name calling and entertaining comments like this.
Pretty much sums up one side of the arguement, Bum. Nicely said. :lol:

 

[Dazza_devil]

Totally couldn't be arsed reading this thread, just skim through for the name calling and entertaining comments like this.
Pretty much sums up one side of the arguement, Bum. Nicely said. :lol:

I know what you mean Pete, I pissed myself laughing at some parts. Some classic lines from Bum.
I haven't started name calling, yet. I suspect that when I do the mods will step in. I'm actually surprised they haven't already but we'll see how it goes.
All my posts in this thread have been sober so far, having a few days off and just finished putting some more CO2 into the atmosphere by feeding yeast. I must put some more plants around my fermenting fridge just to offset it.

 

[petesbrew]

I know what you mean Pete, I pissed myself laughing at some parts. Some classic lines from Bum.
I haven't started name calling, yet. I suspect that when I do the mods will step in. I'm actually surprised they haven't already but we'll see how it goes.
All my posts in this thread have been sober so far, having a few days off and just finished putting some more CO2 into the atmosphere by feeding yeast. I must put some more plants around my fermenting fridge just to offset it.

For the record, we did earth hour while we were away for the weekend. Very romantic. Lit up some candles, and watched a dvd... but that's okay, it was the caravan park's power.

 

[Fourstar]

my counter. at layman level.

 

[Dazza_devil]

I think Earth Hour makes us more aware of 'us all' on a Global level and how we can affect each others lives on a global level as one people and not just as an individual.
It did me anyway.

 

[microbe]

Nice one 4*

microbe

 

[TasChris]

I am a climate change sceptic. I might be right however what if I am wrong the consequences would be catastrophic.
So its not about whether there is man caused climate change or not its about risk management.
If we take steps to minimise our carbon footprint and reduce our impact on the world etc and this reduces global warming then this is a great outcome and if it has no impact on global warming then at least we will have a cleaner world to live (baste) in.
Basically its a win win scenario.

I know this is an over simplified view of the issue.

Mind you I do get tired of the scientific community tying everything into climate change in order to receive funding or gain credibility.
Eg The propulsion systems of Jellyfish and there effect on climate change (not real just an example)
Chris

 

[Dazza_devil]

Here's a bit of info on Ice Age for rimrunner.

The last Glacial maximum of the Quaternary Ice age ended 10 000 years ago. Yep we survived a glacial advance .
Glacialogically speaking we are in an interglacial period of the Quaternary Ice Age, so we are not in a glacial period but in glacial retreat.
Given a glacialogical definition of Ice Age, the current Ice age has been running for 2.58 million years. Yep we are surviving in an Ice Age.
For our purposes the term "ice age" would refer to the last glacial maximum.

These delicately balanced cycles of the earth's climate could easily be put out of balance by human impact causing catastrophic outcomes. Things could happen much faster than what they do naturally and they are already.

What's it got to do with Earth Hour? - Global Awareness

 

[Leigh]

These delicately balanced cycles of the earth's climate could easily be put out of balance by human impact causing catastrophic outcomes. Things could happen much faster than what they do naturally and they are already.

Can you please provide the facts to support this statement?

Delicately balanced?

Easily put out of balance?

Are humans somehow above nature?

Are we not natural?

Bees evolved to collect pollen and convert that to honey in bee-constructed hives. Is that NATURAL?

...and the fundamental question of all, is beer natural?

 

[Dazza_devil]

We can blow up the world many times over with nuclear warheads, is that natural?

 

[bum]

Are you really suggesting that Industrialisation is part of our evolution? Who wants to play Boggle with my mind? I must warn you, it will win - it's boggling pretty hard right now.

I would think it was blatantly apparent that there is very little about our behaviours that is natural any more.

Surely anyone who is suggesting that mankind is causing harm to nature can't be accused of thinking man is above nature?

 

[Dazza_devil]

Are you really suggesting that Industrialisation is part of our evolution? Who wants to play Boggle with my mind? I must warn you, it will win - it's boggling pretty hard right now.

I would think it was blatantly apparent that there is very little about our behaviours that is natural any more.

Surely anyone who is suggesting that mankind is causing harm to nature can't be accused of thinking man is above nature?

I'm with Bum,
Nature is definitely above humans and that we will find out if we continue to tamper with it in a careless and arrogant way. The earth has a wonderful way of cleansing it's rubbish and nature may bring about the end to us all.



Anything that has taken billions of years to evolve is gonna be delicately balanced in my opinion, but I may be wrong. I've been wrong before.

 

[stm]

Yep, you're wrong again Boagsy. Phil Jones, one of the leading pro-warming climate "scientists" admits that the recent warming 1975-1998 is not exceptional, but is in fact about the same rate and magnitude of warming as previously measured warming periods (when there was not significant man-made CO2 emmissions), with cooling in intervening periods (even when man-made CO2 emissions were rising, for example, 1945-1975). In any case the medieval warming period about 1000 years ago was warmer than now, and there has been cooling in the last 10 years.

Link below for Dr Jones's admissions:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/14/phil...settled-issues/

Global warming is a scam and I marked Earth Hour with a celebration of human progress by turning all my lights on. Better than darkness, ignorance and repression.

 

[rimrunner]

"for our purposes ice age would refer to the last glacial maximum" boagsy (sorry my browser is giving me all sorts of grief with posting in this forum. you'll have to live with a little paraphrasing)

no. ice age would be what the experts refer to, and that's what we are in right now. why you would insist on using ice age to refer to something it's not when we both know what it means is beyond me. yes we are in an interglacial but it's still an ice age. we know this by looking at this sort of information. you will notice that in the last four interglacials the maximum temperature at least 3 degrees warmer and up to 4. this is without mankinds help. if the temperature goes up another 3 degrees from todays then that is to be EXPECTED. you maintain we will be ok given the past history of the ice but then baulk at a few more degrees that we have also repeatedly survived.

i know CO2 has an effect on the temperature of the planet. water vapour has an even larger effect. this fundamental of science allows us to be here at all. but compared to things like the planets albedo and solar activity, CO2s contribution is relatively small. and it's contribution does not increase with higher PPM in a linear line. i'm well aware of what carbon is and how it affects us. dropping carbon emissions is probably a good thing and i don't stand in the way of people who want to do that. but i will fight long and hard against people who think something has to be done and justify themselves forcing bad ideas onto people for the sake of doing something.

as for the storms and rising sea levels i asked you specifically to find something else. you didn't so i can assume then thats all your worried about.

firstly storms are not a likely threat. precipitation would be due to higher water vapour in atmosphere, however storms require a temperature gradient to propagate. if the polar regions become warmer they will become warmer more than the equatorial regions. if anything massive storms could become less likely.
rising sea levels can or would displace many people. of course there would be some friction as all the coastal population needs somewhere to live. but this will be a fairly lengthy process and no-one will just die from drowning in the ocean.

on the other hand three degrees cooler and you find millions dying of famine. with migration from polar regions in europe because it's just too cold. we can survive a glacial period but you have to realise that ice sheets reached to texas during the last glaciation. if you think rising sea levels will displace a lot of people then you should be able to understand how much more effect cold can have. yes we survived but we huddled in one continent. do you think fitting all of the human race into afrcia is a good plan?

i mentioned desertification first and said don't bother. deserts are not caused by heat. desertification damage done today is a result of sand moving. most non-sandy deserts can recover with enough rainfall. (something global warming could help with) but the sandy deserts like the sahara and gobi are blown around by the wind and destroy everything in it's path with no chance of rainfall fixing affected areas. given that both areas are ancient i doubt your going to blame them on us, or at least industrialisation.

mr boagsy i hope you don't really think i just read one article and ran with it do you? i have read the IPCC reports. they are full of the sort of information picking you blame me of. for instance how may climatologists are saying "don't worry it's actually colder than we expected it to be" or "warming the earth by 3 degrees will result in better crop yields helping with world feeding."
you don't see this because too many global warming proponents are not using science but scare tactics. when someone try's to scare you into submission they rarely have real authority on their side.

 

[Dazza_devil]

Yep, you're wrong again Boagsy. Phil Jones, one of the leading pro-warming climate "scientists" admits that the recent warming 1975-1998 is not exceptional, but is in fact about the same rate and magnitude of warming as previously measured warming periods (when there was not significant man-made CO2 emmissions), with cooling in intervening periods (even when man-made CO2 emissions were rising, for example, 1945-1975). In any case the medieval warming period about 1000 years ago was warmer than now, and there has been cooling in the last 10 years.

Link below for Dr Jones's admissions:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/14/phil...settled-issues/

Global warming is a scam and I marked Earth Hour with a celebration of human progress by turning all my lights on. Better than darkness, ignorance and repression.

We know the earth has been warmer and cooler in the past and that was without human impact. Now with increasing human impact who knows what the future holds, that's what we have to be concerned with. Human impact at a high increasing rate will have an effect on the future, we can't rule it out surely.
I reckon better safe to be sorry, what do we have to lose?

The attitude, it's not fucked yet so let's keep trying to **** it doesn't sit with me.
Darkness, ignorance and repression - that could be the outcome indeed.
How in any way can caring for the earth we live on be an act of repression? The only real way forward is to learn how to live on the planet sustainably.

 

[bum]

dropping carbon emissions is probably a good thing and i don't stand in the way of people who want to do that. but i will fight long and hard against people who think something has to be done and justify themselves forcing bad ideas onto people for the sake of doing something.

My poor boggling brain! This is the most ludicrous thing I have read in this entire thread. "I agree that your position is a good one. I will argue against anyone expressing your position."

Nothing else needs addressing in light of this (despite some massive holes in both your logic and your rhetoric).

 

[boingk]

Facts:

* The planet has been warmer, without our help.
* Human civilisation is not helping the current warming trend.
* We are going to suffer quite badly if the warming continues.

So. . . why don't we try and help the planet chill out a bit by cutting emissions? Seems like a pretty simple arguement.

The only real way forward is to learn how to live on the planet sustainably.

Exactly. We all flush our toilets and get our vehicles maintained, right? Throw out food thats on the turn? Well, thats also called sustainable living - if we didn't do those things our established physical environment and the things in it would not be helping us, it'd be a fetid blody mess of rotten food, sh!t and broken cars/houses/tools etc.

So. . . why not try and live sustainably on the planet?

- boingk