Different Pilseners And Yeasts

[nabs478]

Hey guys,

I have read a little about pilsener and am unsure of where a czech pils fits in. Firstly what is a czech pils and how does it differ from a bohemian pils and a german pils or american pils?

The other questions I have is about Saflager S-23. At this stage I plan to brew a 50L batch of bohemian pilsener. I think one of my most commonly occuring problems with lager brewing is the amount of yeast pitched. I have decided that with this one, I am going to follow the Mr Malty Pitching rate calculator (http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html), which seems way over the top. For 50L it calls for one of the following - 9 to 12 liquid yeast packs, 4 to 5 liquid yeast packs in a 10L starter (number depends on production date), 4 packs of dry yeast or 400mL of yeast slurry.

Obviously dry yeast is much easier and cost effective. But the questions is, will it produce as good a bohemian pilsener as Wyeast 2001 (Urquell Lager) or 2124 (Bohemian Lager)?

Thanks

 

[samhighley]

The BCJP guidelines for the style Pilsner gives a good rundown, but basically:

• A czech pilsner is a Bohemian Pilsener
• An American pilsner, or Classic American Pilsner in BJCP terms, is a variation created by German brewers who migrated to America. It uses local American ingredients like corn and american hops (ie. Cluster)
• A German Pilsner (ie. Pils) is typically drier and crisper than a BoPils

 

[rclemmett]

Check an atlas..... Bohemia is a region of the czech republic, very near a little town called Plzen.....

s-23 will not produce a good pilsner IMHO.

 

[t2000kw]

I have decided that with this one, I am going to follow the Mr Malty Pitching rate calculator (http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html), which seems way over the top. For 50L it calls for one of the following - 9 to 12 liquid yeast packs, 4 to 5 liquid yeast packs in a 10L starter (number depends on production date), 4 packs of dry yeast or 400mL of yeast slurry.

Obviously dry yeast is much easier and cost effective. But the questions is, will it produce as good a bohemian pilsener as Wyeast 2001 (Urquell Lager) or 2124 (Bohemian Lager)?

If you end up using a liquid yeast, you can make a yeast starter and use only one tube or pack, saving money. It will approach the cost of the dried yeast if you use 4 packs of that.

I can't make a comparison with those yeasts, but I can say that I made a lager (I don't remember what type of lager it was, but it was a lighter golden style) many years ago with Red Star lager yeast (no longer available???). It came out very clean tasting. I also made a Bohemian lager with the dried yeast that came with the ingredients kit (I don't remember the brand). It was a lager yeast and also came out very clean tasting. I did not do a diacetyl rest with either of those since I wasn't aware back then that you "should" do that.

The American Lager I made (similar to Budweiser, made with rice syrup solids) used a liquid White Labs lager yeast (in a tube) and it also came out great. I prefer White Labs because I don't like the smack pack setting my brew session time for me. I waited a day or so once on a Wyeast smack pack to be ready. I was ready when it wasn't, and it was ready when I wasn't. That doesn't meet my requirements, but it works for many brewers. It's not that it's a substandard yeast. I would use it if it came in a tube and was similar in pitching rate to the White Labs product, which claims it is a "directy pitchable" yeast. In actuality, it could use a starter, but it worked well for me directly pitched into the cooled wort.

 

[Stuster]

I prefer White Labs because I don't like the smack pack setting my brew session time for me. I waited a day or so once on a Wyeast smack pack to be ready. I was ready when it wasn't, and it was ready when I wasn't. That doesn't meet my requirements, but it works for many brewers. It's not that it's a substandard yeast. I would use it if it came in a tube and was similar in pitching rate to the White Labs product, which claims it is a "directy pitchable" yeast. In actuality, it could use a starter, but it worked well for me directly pitched into the cooled wort.

White Labs and Wyeast provide the same amount of yeast in their vial v. an Activator smack pack, around about 100 billion cells. There's really no necessity to wait for it to swell up and if you don't then it's exactly the same as pitching a WL vial. If you wait for it to swell, you are really not getting any significant yeast growth, you are just proving the yeast is viable, something you can't tell from a WL pack. That's not to say that WL is bad at all. Both claim they are directly pitchable and they are to some extent, especially if you start out with a lower gravity batch, or a smaller one. I've certainly done that with both brands and they've worked fine. If it's an older pack though, or it's a high gravity wort you're fermenting or you're doing a bigger batch like Pip is then more yeast is needed so a starter is a good idea.

Pip, I don't think you need so many yeast packs. You can step up a liquid yeast with a big starter (say 5L), ferment it out, let the yeast drop out, then pitch the slurry after you decant the starter wort. Ideally, I'd say a 10L starter would be right, but that's a fairly big starter to pour away. So an alternative is to start it with a smaller batch. You could split a first batch between dry yeast (40L) and liquid (10L). Then the slurry for your second 50L batch.

 

[seemax]

Wyeast Urquell is very good IMO for recreating a clone of Pilsner Urquell.

S-23 would be a poor choice, it's a little fruity.

W34/70 and S-189 are the best dry yeasts, both producing very clean, crisp lagers. I ferment around 9C.

 

[nabs478]

Thanks for your input guys.

I have made some great beers with S23, but am not surprised that most people dont think it would do a good bohemian pils.

Stuster - I had considered doing something like a split batch, and in the past I have routinely made three very different beers from one big mash. With this beer I want to create a perfectly repeatable recipe to see how well I can brew it over and over again. For this reason I would prefer to be able to pitch bought yeast straight from the pack, or make a specific starter size with specific wort each time to remove the inconsistancy of storing the yeast slurry. Having said that though, there is no way I am going to pay for 9 to 12 liquid yeast packs every batch, or even 4 for that matter, so I guess I will probably try my hand at storing slurry and reusing it.....at least it will be cheap!

 

[MHB]

There is a natural divide between North German and Southern German (Bavarian/Bohemian) beers; in fact there are genetic differences between the yeasts favoured in the north and south.

S-23 is the only dry readily available example of a southern style of Lager yeast.
SW-34/70 and S-189 are examples of the northern style.
So if you want the fuller bodied rounder maltier southern style you are best off with S-23.

Of course the differences go a lot further than just the yeast, but the yeast is a critical part of the beer.

MHB

 

[rclemmett]

There is a natural divide between North German and Southern German (Bavarian/Bohemian) beers; in fact there are genetic differences between the yeasts favoured in the north and south.

S-23 is the only dry readily available example of a southern style of Lager yeast.
SW-34/70 and S-189 are examples of the northern style.
So if you want the fuller bodied rounder maltier southern style you are best off with S-23.

Of course the differences go a lot further than just the yeast, but the yeast is a critical part of the beer.

MHB

Pilsners and lagers are different...

You can't tell me s-23 will get you close to Urquell, Budvar or Starpromen.

Isn't w-34/70 from the south and s-23 from Berlin?

 

[blackbock]

Pilsners and lagers are different...

You can't tell me s-23 will get you close to Urquell, Budvar or Starpromen.

Isn't w-34/70 from the south and s-23 from Berlin?

The W in W34/70 Stands for "Weihenstephan", which is in Munich. The strain S23 was developed at the VLB in Berlin.
And S189 is called 'Swiss Lager Yeast'. Can't get much more Southern than that.

3/3 wrong.

 

[kenlock]

Thanks for your input guys.

I have made some great beers with S23, but am not surprised that most people dont think it would do a good bohemian pils.

Stuster - I had considered doing something like a split batch, and in the past I have routinely made three very different beers from one big mash. With this beer I want to create a perfectly repeatable recipe to see how well I can brew it over and over again. For this reason I would prefer to be able to pitch bought yeast straight from the pack, or make a specific starter size with specific wort each time to remove the inconsistancy of storing the yeast slurry. Having said that though, there is no way I am going to pay for 9 to 12 liquid yeast packs every batch, or even 4 for that matter, so I guess I will probably try my hand at storing slurry and reusing it.....at least it will be cheap!

Pip, buy a liquid yeast, build up and then split into 5-6. Then build the appropriate sized starter from one of these.

 

[MHB]

I'll stick with what I said, the fact that the yeast came out of culture collections at different brewing schools Weihenstephan and VLB (both maintain large culture libraries) doesn't mean the yeast from that library is from that region.

In the same way that the choosing a yeast from the UK's National Collection of Yeast Cultures wouldn't make that yeast a "Norwich" yeast.

On page 9 of this PDF from Fermentis "Tips and Tricks" View attachment Tips_Tricks.pdfThere is a great yeast comparison table. Remember that this is designed for professional brewers some of the content is more useful than other bits. Yes I mean the bit about re-hydrating yeast, if you don't know exactly what you are doing and don't have a thermometer in at least one hand follow the instructions on the packet. Ducking for cover.

Anyway S-23 is the least attenuative of the three Saf Yeasts, has the lowest alcohol tolerance and is the most likely to produce esters (all be it at a fraction of the rate that ale yeasts do) reads like a south German yeast to me. Fermentis recommend S-23 for Dortmund beers.

MHB

If you want to know more about yeast than you thought possible read the PDF "Tips and Tricks" above its one of the best bits of info out there.

 

[rclemmett]

I'll stick with what I said, the fact that the yeast came out of culture collections at different brewing schools Weihenstephan and VLB (both maintain large culture libraries) doesn't mean the yeast from that library is from that region.

In the same way that the choosing a yeast from the UK's National Collection of Yeast Cultures wouldn't make that yeast a "Norwich" yeast.

On page 9 of this PDF from Fermentis "Tips and Tricks" View attachment 26779There is a great yeast comparison table. Remember that this is designed for professional brewers some of the content is more useful than other bits. Yes I mean the bit about re-hydrating yeast, if you don't know exactly what you are doing and don't have a thermometer in at least one hand follow the instructions on the packet. Ducking for cover.

Anyway S-23 is the least attenuative of the three Saf Yeasts, has the lowest alcohol tolerance and is the most likely to produce esters (all be it at a fraction of the rate that ale yeasts do) reads like a south German yeast to me. Fermentis recommend S-23 for Dortmund beers.

MHB

If you want to know more about yeast than you thought possible read the PDF "Tips and Tricks" above its one of the best bits of info out there.

Fair enough that makes sense. They do recommend w-34/70 for Pilsners though.

Also, I would have thought Dortmund was more north than south.....

 

[Tony M]

Obviously dry yeast is much easier and cost effective. But the questions is, will it produce as good a bohemian pilsener as Wyeast 2001 (Urquell Lager) or 2124 (Bohemian Lager)?

Thanks

I kept a W2124 alive for many Cz pils brews and was most pleased with the result. I have brewed many more since with Saf. 34/70 and am still happy but feel that the Wyeast had the edge. I have not tried the 2001.
If you want a CZ pils, use soft water, saaz hops, keep your ferment below 12C and pitch a healthy starter. For that, boil up 200gm of DME in two litres of water, cool and pitch your packet of 34/70. When that has built up a good head of steam, get your 50 litre brew going.

 

[blackbock]

I'll stick with what I said, the fact that the yeast came out of culture collections at different brewing schools Weihenstephan and VLB (both maintain large culture libraries) doesn't mean the yeast from that library is from that region.

In the same way that the choosing a yeast from the UK's National Collection of Yeast Cultures wouldn't make that yeast a "Norwich" yeast.
...
Anyway S-23 is the least attenuative of the three Saf Yeasts, has the lowest alcohol tolerance and is the most likely to produce esters (all be it at a fraction of the rate that ale yeasts do) reads like a south German yeast to me. Fermentis recommend S-23 for Dortmund beers.

MHB

If you want to know more about yeast than you thought possible read the PDF "Tips and Tricks" above its one of the best bits of info out there.

Not wanting to be a nark here, but the PDF supplied actually lists W34/70 as suitable for Pilsner, Light Munich, Vienna, Marzenbier, Oktoberfest beers. All Southern. S189 is listed as being suitable for Bock, Dark Munich, Doppelbock.
All southern. S23 is listed as being suitable for Dortmunder, and I wouldn't think anyone could call that Southern.

No lager beer should contain esters, and the attenuation rate and alc. tolerance are red Herrings. From that perspective, Saflager S23 is not ideally suited to any traditional style lager beer, which is what thousands of other brewers around the world have been saying ever since it was first brought out. Sure it ferments low, but it was one of the first dry lager strains available, and was indeed selected for its suitability for drying process, not simply pulled out of some library of pre-existing brewery yeasts held at the VLB which MHB seems to be suggesting.