Did I Make A Mistake?

[kelbygreen]

I have used a secondary once and after that find no need to bother. if you rack to secondary just to bulk prime then you want to leave yeast behind so it will take 15 mins or so. if you measure the priming sugar and prime each bottle it will take about 10 mins. I see people saying bulk priming saves so much time! but by the time you clean, sanitise, measure and rack the beer id have the bottles primed and all bottles and caps lined ready to cap. You can clear beer in primary and there is no reason not to just crush chill and you will be fine.

 

[CONNOR BREWARE]

I don't understand the science but I find leaving it on the yeast bed for a week or two does not hurt and most of my beers come out crystal clear, I may also be to lazy to rack..

The more yeast the quicker the conditioning, I agree a week or two is good.

 

[DKS]

So how do the other brews look Joel?
You say they are conditioning. In the bottle?
Did you use a clearing agent?
Daz

 

[felten]

A secondary has it's place, but if you just want clear beer it's easier to cold condition in the primary for a few days/weeks (depending on if you have a fridge or not of course). Racking is going to stir everything up, and then you have to wait for it to settle again, seems a bit backwards.

 

[manticle]

Still plenty of yeast suspended in the beer at this point, I would have thought. CO2 blanket is probably a better reason not to rack at FG, innit?

Regardless, unless Joel stirred up his yeast cake when he bottled then it probably isn't bloody yeast cake in his bottles and the original suggestion is moot.

Plenty of yeast to carbonate yes but it's been suggested that separating the beer from the majority of the yeast too early can result in detectable levels of things like acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The oft quoted White and Zanaischeff book is one reference. There are a few reasons not to rack right on FG and none that I can think of to do so.

Why is it probably not yeast sediment in the second glass? As far as I can work out the OP is wondering why the second glass looks different from the first. 5 pages of discussion later it still seems like the most obvious reason is just that - obvious.

 

[felten]

maybe it's ginger

 

[bum]

Why is it probably not yeast sediment in the second glass?

Yeast cake from primary (as per stakka82's shitty diagnosis - i.e. the advice under question) and yeast settled out in the bottle are two entirely different things one would have thought. And I haven't read Yeast - does it specifically state leaving it on the primary yeast cake is best or does it talk about keeping larger volumes of yeast together conditions better (i.e. in batches rather than in bottles)? I'd be interested to have it explained to me how the flocced out, sleepy yeast under trub and stuff does more to condition beer than active, suspended yeast.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Yeast cake from primary (as per stakka82's shitty diagnosis - i.e. the advice under question) and yeast settled out in the bottle are two entirely different things one would have thought. And I haven't read Yeast - does it specifically state leaving it on the primary yeast cake is best or does it talk about keeping larger volumes of yeast together conditions better (i.e. in batches rather than in bottles)? I'd be interested to have it explained to me how the flocced out, sleepy yeast under trub and stuff does more to condition beer than active, suspended yeast.

Sheer numbers. There are LOT more cells in that "cake" than in suspension. And they are not entirely inactive.

Premature separation from primary yeast can cause issues, as can leaving beer on it too long.... Define "premature" or "too long".... Well, that would be the point at which you begin to notice trouble. If what you are doing gives you the result you want, then its right. If you actually have a problem, then you need to look at your process in light of the particular problem you are having

I personally dont rack to secondary because I experience no issues with leaving the beer on the primary yeast - and so not only never have to "worry" about the potential issues of premature racking, but also never have to go to the effort of doing it. If I ever experience problems that are indicative of having left yeast in contact with the primary yeast cake for too long.... Well i'll have another think about my process then.

 

[bum]

Thanks, TB. (Sorta) clears up some of my questions.

Premature separation from primary yeast can cause issues

Obviously we're getting away from OP's issue here but we wouldn't we most likely be past this stage if we racked at FG ? (As mentioned previously, I'm not advising people to do this, I'm just asking for my own knowledge). I mean people regularly rack lagers sooner than is being advised in other posts and they condition up alright, right?

 

[chefeffect]

Thanks, TB. (Sorta) clears up some of my questions.


Obviously we're getting away from OP's issue here but we wouldn't we most likely be past this stage if we racked at FG ? (As mentioned previously, I'm not advising people to do this, I'm just asking for my own knowledge). I mean people regularly rack lagers sooner than is being advised in other posts and they condition up alright, right?

Lagar yeast is a bottom fermenting yeast and while still on the yeast cake will continue to disrupt the yeast cake hence requiring the lagering process in secondary, along with other technical reasons also. Ale yeast is top cropping meaning the ale yeasts will continue to work in the top layers of the beer while not disrupting the yeast cake, hence being able to leaving it on the yeast cake for longer, the yeast cake has a larger volume of yeast cells to help do the more techinical clearing process that has been explained briefly in other posts. I hope this helps but as for the scientific reasons I unfortuanately can not explain why the yeast cake helps with clearing, but from trial and error it just does.

And yes it could be ginger also, if the bottles are left long enough and not roughly handled when being poured they should be fine, both the yeast and ginger will settle, but again if you let it settle in the primary you will have less in your bottles. I also would find it hard for someone to bottle the yeast cake as mentioned in other posts, surely you would know not to do this, and bottling from primary is easy to do with out stirring up the yeast cake.

edit: in John J. Palmers book "how to brew" he states he has lagered in the primary with no issues, so that kind of shots my bottom fermenting yeast theory to shit, but I guess the yeast would slow down in the cooler temps.

 

[manticle]

Thanks, TB. (Sorta) clears up some of my questions.


Obviously we're getting away from OP's issue here but we wouldn't we most likely be past this stage if we racked at FG ? (As mentioned previously, I'm not advising people to do this, I'm just asking for my own knowledge). I mean people regularly rack lagers sooner than is being advised in other posts and they condition up alright, right?

The reason for racking earlier is due to an extended time spent on yeast cake so removing the beer part way through will get it away from dead cells while living ones are still fermenting and reproducing. If you rack before FG, yeast will still make new cells to deal with the sugar remaining and therefore enough should be present at the end to help clean up byproducts. If you rack at FG it's unlikely there will be any more reproduction. Compounds that get produced during fermentation need a bit of extra time with yeast to be reabsorbed or transformed into other, nicer compounds (acetaldehyde to alcohol for example).

Therefore racking sooner (than FG) is OK in that regard and racking a little bit after is OK but racking right on is the worst time.

This is my understanding from what I've read - hopefully I haven't cocked it up.

Have we derailed the OP's thread enough yet?

 

[stux]

Why would that make your massive fart pains worse or just painful and emotional.

Vagina's don't like yeast

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks, TB. (Sorta) clears up some of my questions.


Obviously we're getting away from OP's issue here but we wouldn't we most likely be past this stage if we racked at FG ? (As mentioned previously, I'm not advising people to do this, I'm just asking for my own knowledge). I mean people regularly rack lagers sooner than is being advised in other posts and they condition up alright, right?

Racking away from yeast just means there is less yeast to do the job ... So it takes longer. Ergo really lengthy lagering periods. More yeast, less contact time required.

I'm interested in the notion of "racking at FG" anyway - i dont know i have reached FG till my beers PG has remained unchanged for a few days.... By this time its probably had all the contact with the primary cake it needs anyway.

Racking when the yeast is still fermenting is something i have never understood - and after three years of studying brewing i still cant see why you would.... But people do it and make fine beer, so if you do it right there's nothing wrong with it i guess.

 

[Fourstar]

Lagar yeast is a bottom fermenting yeast and while still on the yeast cake will continue to disrupt the yeast cake hence requiring the lagering process in secondary, along with other technical reasons also. Ale yeast is top cropping meaning the ale yeasts will continue to work in the top layers of the beer while not disrupting the yeast cake, hence being able to leaving it on the yeast cake for longer, the yeast cake has a larger volume of yeast cells to help do the more techinical clearing process that has been explained briefly in other posts. I hope this helps but as for the scientific reasons I unfortuanately can not explain why the yeast cake helps with clearing, but from trial and error it just does.

you might want to re-check these theories you have chefeffect. Lager and ale yeasts and how they work at the top/bottom of the fermenting wort has no bearing on the effect of beer 'clearning'. Yes, ale yeats can 'top crop' but this has no rellevance on how we end up with the final product of "beer" compared to lager yeast. Lager and ale yeasts both have plenty of yeast in suspension which do all of the grunt work. Its got nothing todo with the bulk of yeast 'appearing' to be at the top or bottom of the fermenter depening on the strain. Take some US05 and ferment it below 18 degrees, for majority of its cycle it will appear like a lager yeast does with only a minimal krausen.

Seeing isnt always believing.

 

[chefeffect]

you might want to re-check these theories you have chefeffect. Lager and ale yeasts and how they work at the top/bottom of the fermenting wort has no bearing on the effect of beer 'clearning'. Yes, ale yeats can 'top crop' but this has no rellevance on how we end up with the final product of "beer" compared to lager yeast. Lager and ale yeasts both have plenty of yeast in suspension which do all of the grunt work. Its got nothing todo with the bulk of yeast 'appearing' to be at the top or bottom of the fermenter depening on the strain. Take some US05 and ferment it below 18 degrees, for majority of its cycle it will appear like a lager yeast does with only a minimal krausen.

Seeing isnt always believing.

Cheers mate,

Its good to be always learning. I checked my very basic theory via a pod cast at basicbrewing.com and yeah mine was wrong as usual. Its worth checking them out there are three of them with guest speaker Dave Logsdon of wyeast, and I found loads of usefull tips like aeration and the second fermentation helping with the clearing process. I highly recommend a listen.

Edit: Although Dave recommends not racking for second fermentation for various reasons.

 

[bum]

I'm interested in the notion of "racking at FG" anyway - i dont know i have reached FG till my beers PG has remained unchanged for a few days.... By this time its probably had all the contact with the primary cake it needs anyway.

Fair call. I'm not in a position to illuminate you any though - not my theory nor my practice.

Racking when the yeast is still fermenting is something i have never understood

As mentioned above, I don't rack but I do recall often reading advice to rack at about 3/4 primary or so in order to ensure a CO2 blanket forms over the brew. I would have thought the act of racking would probably knock enough CO2 out of solution from a recently finished primary to form something of a blanket but the logic seems sound enough at a layman's level (where I'm at). But as always I'm happy to defer to your knowledge and I'll alter that particular file in the memory bank.

Thanks again.

 

[fcmcg]

Cheers mate,

Its good to be always learning. I checked my very basic theory via a pod cast at basicbrewing.com and yeah mine was wrong as usual. Its worth checking them out there are three of them with guest speaker Dave Logsdon of wyeast, and I found loads of usefull tips like aeration and the second fermentation helping with the clearing process. I highly recommend a listen.

Edit: Although Dave recommends not racking for second fermentation for various reasons.

Bloke ,
There is a new book out called "Yeast", by Jamil Zainasheff and Chris White...it's a cracking read and may rock your world , like it did mine....
Very interesting stuff indeed....
Ferg

 

[Wolfy]

There is a new book out called "Yeast", by Jamil Zainasheff and Chris White...it's a cracking read and may rock your world , like it did mine....
Very interesting stuff indeed....

Some chapters are almost certain to put you to sleep ... so you mean 'rock' like a baby in a cradle?

 

[CONNOR BREWARE]

Some chapters are almost certain to put you to sleep ... so you mean 'rock' like a baby in a cradle?

Only just, I may have a problem but I,ve been known to enjoy a few chapters before bed to get me relaxed and dreaming of perfecting brew day. I think it's extremely readable for a book on yeast.

 

[fcmcg]

Some chapters are almost certain to put you to sleep ... so you mean 'rock' like a baby in a cradle?

OT
But Wolfy , as I type this On the iPhone with one hand , at 3 am , there is no sleep from the baby who is drinking this bottle of milk like a trouper !