Dark Belgian - Recommendations?

[newguy]

I'm definitely going to miss having this brew ready for our club's December meeting, but I can still make January. Our club's executive gets together each fall and brews a special beer for the club's consumption. Even though I'm not on the executive anymore, I've volunteered to brew this (for some stupid reason that eludes me). I have something Belgian in mind, and I have oodles of WLP570 Belgian Golden Ale yeast(cake) available, but I'd like it to be a dark Belgian......and spiced to boot.

I don't want any dark roasted grain flavours - just colour for the most part. What would you recommend for the job? Carafa? Chocolate? Roasted barley (a small amount)? I'm thinking ~97% pale malt with the balance carafa, but I'd like a second opinion. I'm shooting for a deep brown colour, or deep copper. I suppose that a dark version of a tripel would best describe what I want.

As for the spice, I'm leaning toward cardamom. I really like Unibroue's Trois Pistoles, and I get more cardamom than anything else in that beer. Can anyone recommend an amount of cardamom? While I'm at it, what ONE additional spice would go well with cardamom?

 

[Steve]

As for the spice, I'm leaning toward cardamom. I really like Unibroue's Trois Pistoles, and I get more cardamom than anything else in that beer. Can anyone recommend an amount of cardamom? While I'm at it, what ONE additional spice would go well with cardamom?

cumin

 

[brettprevans]

you havent specified whether yorur after K&K, extract or AG.

sorta like a Chimay Blue (extract version)

Liquid Dark Malt Extract 2.75kg
black grain 40g
dark Belgian candy sugar 500g (or use the liquid candi sugar from craftbrewer)
creamed honey 350g
bittering hops hallertau 50g @ 40
bittering hops goldings 25g @ 40
WLP500
20L

cloves would go well or cinnamon (or both - i know you said one)

 

[Adamt]

I don't want any dark roasted grain flavours - just colour for the most part.

... then why bother? Throw in some Special B (if you can get it), or Weyermann Caraaroma. Yum stuff!

 

[bconnery]

I'm definitely going to miss having this brew ready for our club's December meeting, but I can still make January. Our club's executive gets together each fall and brews a special beer for the club's consumption. Even though I'm not on the executive anymore, I've volunteered to brew this (for some stupid reason that eludes me). I have something Belgian in mind, and I have oodles of WLP570 Belgian Golden Ale yeast(cake) available, but I'd like it to be a dark Belgian......and spiced to boot.

I don't want any dark roasted grain flavours - just colour for the most part. What would you recommend for the job? Carafa? Chocolate? Roasted barley (a small amount)? I'm thinking ~97% pale malt with the balance carafa, but I'd like a second opinion. I'm shooting for a deep brown colour, or deep copper. I suppose that a dark version of a tripel would best describe what I want.

As for the spice, I'm leaning toward cardamom. I really like Unibroue's Trois Pistoles, and I get more cardamom than anything else in that beer. Can anyone recommend an amount of cardamom? While I'm at it, what ONE additional spice would go well with cardamom?

Carafa special is good for the job I think. I always have some of this on hand for use wherever dark grain is called for.
You could also look to get some colour from a dark candi sugar or other dark sugar.

With cardamon I immediately think of some of my standard curry spices so coriander is the first one that jumps out.
I routinely use cumin, fennigreek, fennel seed, mustard seed and star anise so perhaps one of those? Not sure how some of the earlier ones would go in a dark belgian but I think star anise would work myself...

 

[SJW]

This was a darkish Belgian Strong I did a while ago and it was great, I even got a place in a local comp with it, I think. Anyway not sure if its dark enogh but the carared or cararoma are sensational.


#45 Belgian Strong*
Belgian Golden Strong Ale


Type: All Grain
Date: 21/07/2007
Batch Size: 28.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright
Boil Size: 35.90 L Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Hop Monster Brewery
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 66.00
Taste Notes: 3rd Place HAG 2008

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
7500.00 gm Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 70.56 %
750.00 gm Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 7.06 %
350.00 gm Amber Malt (43.3 EBC) Grain 3.29 %
350.00 gm Carafoam (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 3.29 %
350.00 gm Carared (Weyermann) (47.3 EBC) Grain 3.29 %
45.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.20 %] (60 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
10.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.90 %] (60 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
55.00 gm Saaz [2.50 %] (30 min) Hops 7.4 IBU
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1000.00 gm Brown Sugar, Dark (98.5 EBC) Sugar 9.41 %
330.00 gm Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 3.10 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Strong Ale (Wyeast Labs #1388) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.087 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.087 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.020 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.016 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 8.73 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 9.31 %
Bitterness: 27.5 IBU Calories: 845 cal/l
Est Color: 26.1 EBC Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Double Infusion, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 9300.00 gm
Sparge Water: 15.21 L Grain Temperature: 12.0 C
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 12.0 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Double Infusion, Light Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
10 min Protein Rest Add 15.00 L of water at 54.0 C 46.0 C
60 min Saccrification Add 15.00 L of water at 88.5 C 65.0 C

 

[devo]

You will be surprised to find that some if not most of the great darks don't to rely on long winded, complex grain profiles to achieve the desired results. I'm only ever using german pilsner malt and a little german cara amber and the rest is all sugar. Most of the colour and flavour characteristic comes from adjuncts such as candi syrup or rocks.

Craftbrewer and Grain + Grape both stock authentic imported sugars.

 

[newguy]

Thanks for all the responses. This forum is a goldmine.

CM2 - all grain.
bconnery - I really, really like your suggestion of using star anise. :super: I think that cardamom and star anise would work together very well. I think I'm going to buy a commercial tripel and I'll add the spices in small amounts to try and arrive at a baseline amount for each. Once it's in the keg I can add a bit more spice to taste.

I want to use only 2 spices because I don't want the beer to be too....."busy"? If that's the proper term. I also appreciate the suggestions to use special B or caraaroma, but those 2 grains are pretty rare around these parts. At the moment, anyway. I want the grain bill to be simple so that the flavours are relatively clean and won't end up fighting the spice for attention.

Thanks!

 

[RobB]

bconnery - I really, really like your suggestion of using star anise.

I had cardamom and star anise together in a curry this week (along with cinnamon, pepper, bay and fenugreek) and they do compliment each other very well.

I've also had it in custards with vanilla and it was a sensational partnership, but probably not suited to this particular style of beer.

I have heard that Unibroue use grains of paradise in Trois Pistols, but (a) this remains an unconfirmed internet theory and (B) it seems almost impossible to find.

 

[Interloper]

I have heard that Unibroue use grains of paradise in Trois Pistols, but (a) this remains an unconfirmed internet theory and ( B) it seems almost impossible to find.

Perhaps some Paradise Extract might do the same thing?

 

[warrenlw63]

You will be surprised to find that some if not most of the great darks don't to rely on long winded, complex grain profiles to achieve the desired results. I'm only ever using german pilsner malt and a little german cara amber and the rest is all sugar. Most of the colour and flavour characteristic comes from adjuncts such as candi syrup or rocks.

Craftbrewer and Grain + Grape both stock authentic imported sugars.

+ 1 for the dark syrup. All colour and no junk in the trunk.

Warren -

 

[bindi]

Be careful with any spice, if you can pick a spice in a Belgian then you have used too much, I use very little if any, depends on the yeast and grain bill/sugars.......It's all about the yeast and brewing temps.

Edit: Fat finger typo.

 

[GMK]

I regulary make Trios Pistoles. Here is a copy of my promash recipe.
My recipe calls for Bitter orange peel and star Anise.

Here it is - comes up a treat....

BC Trios Pistoles

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

18-D Strong Belgian Ale, Belgian Strong Dark Ale

Min OG: 1.065 Max OG: 1.098
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 40
Min Clr: 7 Max Clr: 20 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 21.00 Wort Size (L): 21.00
Total Grain (kg): 7.83
Anticipated OG: 1.086 Plato: 20.63
Anticipated SRM: 18.1
Anticipated IBU: 25.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
78.3 6.13 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 2
3.2 0.25 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 51
3.6 0.28 kg. Crystal 60L America 1.034 60
1.6 0.13 kg. CarAmber France 1.034 30
0.6 0.04 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special I Germany 1.036 482
6.4 0.50 kg. Brown Sugar (dark) Generic 1.046 60
6.4 0.50 kg. Golden Syrup Generic 1.036 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.88 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.50 2.2 Mash H
34.13 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 18.0 First WH
16.28 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 4.4 15 min.
7.74 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.50 0.4 3 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.74 gm Bitter Orange Peel Spice 15 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

Wyeast 3864 Canadian/Belgian Style


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain kg: 6.84
Water Qts: 13.07 - Before Additional Infusions
Water L: 12.37 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 1.81 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 65 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Sparge Temp : 0 Time: 0


Total Mash Volume L: 16.93 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.



Notes
-----

15min boil left 0.6ml Anise

3min boil left 0.6ml Anise

For 19ltr Batch -
double for 40ltrs 1.2ml + 1.2ml

3864 yeast 1st chioce or 1214 Yeast

 

[RobB]

I regulary make Trios Pistoles.

How close to the original is yours? Bear in mind that if it's too close, I might be moving in with you.

 

[neonmeate]

i made a big fat dark belgian with cardamom a few years back that got 2nd in the nationals - i believe i also used coriander, grains of paradise and allspice. a little cardamom goes a long way!

a recent one had orange peel, coriander and star anise and that was good... i like the star anise with the dark malt flavours.

currently brewing a tripel with heaps of grains of paradise and coriander. GOP are well worth the money and hassle to find - beautiful lemony peppery flavour that screams belgian beer.

i don't like to use anything roasty in belgian beers, i prefer to build up the colour with cara-aroma, caramunich, amber malt, melanoidin, dark munich etc and dark sugars of various kinds. i know SOME belgian beers don't have a lot of different malts in em but then some do - nostradamus and abbaye des rocs for instance - and i like that flavour in my dark belgians.

 

[newguy]

Thanks, everyone, for all the advice. After having a good hard sniff of some fresh cardamom and anise, I can see why quite a few of you have recommended some orange peel. I'm thinking of approx. 1/2 tsp of cardamom and 1/4 tsp of anise in the boil - about 10 minutes - with a relatively small amount of orange peel - 2 oranges' worth. This is for a double (~42l batch). I want the spice to be relatively low; something that you'd have to think about. Not so obvious as to stick out like a sore thumb.

As for the grain bill, I really want it simple. The more I brew, the more minimalist I become with the grain bill. I still have to run the numbers with my s/w to figure out the colour, but I'm thinking 2-3% carafa with the balance being pale 2 row. I've made dark candi sugar before, so I think I'll make some more to add to this batch. I'm hopeful it will turn out really well. :icon_cheers:

 

[kabooby]

I recently made a Belgian with 85% pils and 15% home made Dark Candi Sugar. Pitched at 18C and let it warm to 26C over a week. OG 1062 - FG 1007.

I didn't add any specialty or crystal malt as I wanted to know exactly what the Candi sugar contributes.

What was meant to be an experimental beer has turned out to be a great beer

If you want to make a dark belgian you will need to add some other malt but the candi sugar definately adds a nice touch

Kabooby :icon_cheers:

 

[neonmeate]

i reckon you should have 1/4 tsp cardamom and 1/2 tsp anise instead - anise isnt that powerful but cardamom is. i used 1 1/2 stars of star anise in a 20L batch and it was still pretty subliminal.

 

[newguy]

i reckon you should have 1/4 tsp cardamom and 1/2 tsp anise instead - anise isnt that powerful but cardamom is. i used 1 1/2 stars of star anise in a 20L batch and it was still pretty subliminal.

Duly noted. Thanks! Did you grind up/crush the anise or did you leave the seeds whole?

 

[neonmeate]

i always just chuck the stars in whole, i don't think it's one of the spices you need to grind (having holes in the middle) - grinding it might give more flavour though, i don't know.