Crap Cider

Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum

Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Airgead and Fossey, I was trying to get something close to Dirty Granny.. not too dry but with some sweetness without being too sweet, with a defined apple flavour.

I tipped one out.. guess which one.

The other I will mix with juice or soda water.
 
Hummm.... OK... you have set yourself a challenge with that style. What sort of equipment do you have to play with? Kegs? Bottles? Can you force carb or will things have to be bottle conditioned?

Cheers
Dave
 
Chookers said:
Hmmm.. alot here to think about. Im going to try some of these out..

I have a stevia plant in my garden.. I wonder if I could use that somehow, to increase the sweetness, and carb one bottle.
I used Stevia to sweeten a pear and apple cider once. Resulted in a weird taste on the finish. I wouldn't use it again.
 
Airgead, I have limited gear.. I have 4 x 5L Glass Demijohns with swing lids.. and 15L plastic fermenter from a wine kit I bought. I also have 25Lt from coopers homebrew kit.. no way to force carb, so everything will be bottle conditioned.. and I have a few dozen plastic and glass bottles. I havent got a proper capper yet, only the hammering type for the crown seals. I have alot of hydrometers for some reason (I dont even know where they all came from). I got 15lt and 20lt stainless steel stock pots.

GalBrew, thanks for your input on the stevia, I wonder if it would work in beer.. like maybe the hops would hide that odd flavour.. or would you think that flavour would still come through..
 
I am not a big fan of the flavour of stevia. I can't stand it in coffee and it came through quite strong in the cider. I guess it depends how sensitive to it you are. Try and use it in coffee or something and see it you can handle it. If it doesn't gross you out then there isn't much of a problem.
 
Stevia is nice raw, cut up and sprinkled through a salad to give a bit of interest to a bowl full of green stuff but I never usi it in cooking or brewing. yech.

Let me think about your cider Chookers. Doing what you want to do with the gear you have will need some cogitation (and beer) to come up with a solution.

Cheers
Dave
 
OK... I have given this some thought...

What you essentially want is something a bit sweeter than fully dry. Apples don't actually have much flavour beyond sweet and acid so when most people say "apple flavour" what they usually mean is "a bit sweet". Th eissue of course is that apples are all simple sugars so pretty much any yeast will leave them completely dry.

There are two things we can do - add some unfermentable sugar somehow or stop the yeast before it finishes.

We'll look at stopping the yeast first. To do that we need to either kill it or remove it. Killing can be done with pasturisation or some sort of chemical. Removal usually means sterile filtration. The issue with both methods is that usually you have to do it before the cider is carbed. You can't bottle condition then uncap, add some chemical and re-cap. Well I suppose you could but its a hell of a lot of work and adding the chemical to carbed cider will probably lose most of your cider to gushers. Likewise with filtration. You can't filter carbed cider and by the sounds of it you don't have the gear for that. You also don't have the gear the force carb still cider so for the moment lets' rule out yeast removal as an option.

That leaves us with unfermentable sugars. Fortunately there are plenty the we can choose from. Lactose is the most common one but no good if you have anyone lactose intolerant. Its also not very sweet so you do need to use quite a bit. Maltodextrin is also another option. Its only partially unfermentable so you will end up with stronger cider. We could add some complex sugars by adding malt but then you wind up with a graff not a cider and it will start to taste a bit beery. It will also make it stronger as you are again adding fermentables as well as unfermentables. If you don't mind stronger cider, there are other compex sugars we can add - brown sugar, rappidura, etc all of which will add flavour and some residual sweetness.

The last option for adding unfermentables is to add pear juice. Pears contain a sugar called sorbitol which is unfermentable. So replacing a percentage of your apple juice with pear will add some unfermentable sorbitol without making the cider stronger as you are replacing juice with juice rather than adding a sugar to juice. How much pear? Depends on the variety but you could start with 10% and experiment from there.

The last thing we can look at is yeast. All yeasts will leave a cider dry but some will produce esters along the way that give a "fruity" flavour which will increase the perception of sweetness in the cider. Using a fruity ale yeast may (and I say may because the nutrient and precursor chemical balance are completely different in juice compared to wort) increase perceived sweetness. There are also some wine yeasts that will enhance fruit flavours but their effect is much more subtle than a beer yeast although they are designed to work in a juice environment (different juice but still more similar than wort) so they may actually work better. Have a look in your local brewshop and see what they have. Unfortunately, most of the really interesting wine strains are only available in bulk kilo packs for professional use.

Ok... so a recipe.

Lets go for 90% apple juice and 10% pear. Ferment with either a good wine yeast that enhances fruit or an ale yeast. After fermentation, you can taste and add lactose to bump up the sweetness further if necessary. You will also probably want to add a little malic acid to bring things back into balance. Add a tiny bit, taste, add more. Stop a little short of where you think it needs to be as its really easy to overshoot.

Give something like that a go and start tweaking. It will take a while to dial in exactly what you like. You may need to add more pear or less pear or you don't like the esters from the yeast so need to try a different one. Each batch change one thing (only one thing so you know what made the difference) and start to bring it closer to what you are after. You can post your experiments and help others learn from what you are doing.

Cheers
Dave
 
Hi all, my first cider has been in the fermenter for 11 days and is down from 1060 to 1002 so I assume it is about to bottom out (around 18deg). Recipe as follows:
Blackrock cider kit incl yeast
6L preservative free apple juice
Approx 3L (6kg) organic grannies (through the juicer whole)
1kg white sugar

Made up to 23L total with filtered water.

It's going to be around 8% which is a lot stronger than what I wanted but given what I put in I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Just picking up on Daves comments I am wondering about transferring to a secondary and adding a bit of pear juice and maybe some water to dilute and slightly sweeten prior to bottling. Is this a good idea or will I just end up with sweet alcoholic water? I was thinking 3L water and 1 or 2 of pear juice.

It also has a hole lot of suspended solids (I am talking the first 4cm of the hydrometer tube) resulting from me not filtering the grannie juice. I have some finings labeled Fgh0005 I have never used finings before and the brew shop told the wife they were no good for cider (still sold them to her though). Is it a good idea to add finings to cider and if so should i chuck them in now to get some of the solids out in the primary or should I just wait?
 
You coul;d try pulling a little once its fermented then diluting that to whatever ratio you want. Taste the sample and see what its like. If its horrid then you will be drinking 8% cider. If its good, dilute the rest of the batch.

Pear will sweeten a bit but you already have a whole lot going on there. I'd let it ferment out, see where it ends (those kits sometimes have some non fermentables added anyway) then decide what to do.

Cheers
Dave

Edit - Finings.... wait till fermentation has stopped. When the yeast is active it will be churning things up anyway. It should all drop clear once fermentation stops even without finings.
 
Airgead said:
OK... I have given this some thought...

What you essentially want is something a bit sweeter than fully dry. Apples don't actually have much flavour beyond sweet and acid so when most people say "apple flavour" what they usually mean is "a bit sweet". Th eissue of course is that apples are all simple sugars so pretty much any yeast will leave them completely dry.

There are two things we can do - add some unfermentable sugar somehow or stop the yeast before it finishes.

We'll look at stopping the yeast first. To do that we need to either kill it or remove it. Killing can be done with pasturisation or some sort of chemical. Removal usually means sterile filtration. The issue with both methods is that usually you have to do it before the cider is carbed. You can't bottle condition then uncap, add some chemical and re-cap. Well I suppose you could but its a hell of a lot of work and adding the chemical to carbed cider will probably lose most of your cider to gushers. Likewise with filtration. You can't filter carbed cider and by the sounds of it you don't have the gear for that. You also don't have the gear the force carb still cider so for the moment lets' rule out yeast removal as an option.

That leaves us with unfermentable sugars. Fortunately there are plenty the we can choose from. Lactose is the most common one but no good if you have anyone lactose intolerant. Its also not very sweet so you do need to use quite a bit. Maltodextrin is also another option. Its only partially unfermentable so you will end up with stronger cider. We could add some complex sugars by adding malt but then you wind up with a graff not a cider and it will start to taste a bit beery. It will also make it stronger as you are again adding fermentables as well as unfermentables. If you don't mind stronger cider, there are other compex sugars we can add - brown sugar, rappidura, etc all of which will add flavour and some residual sweetness.

The last option for adding unfermentables is to add pear juice. Pears contain a sugar called sorbitol which is unfermentable. So replacing a percentage of your apple juice with pear will add some unfermentable sorbitol without making the cider stronger as you are replacing juice with juice rather than adding a sugar to juice. How much pear? Depends on the variety but you could start with 10% and experiment from there.

The last thing we can look at is yeast. All yeasts will leave a cider dry but some will produce esters along the way that give a "fruity" flavour which will increase the perception of sweetness in the cider. Using a fruity ale yeast may (and I say may because the nutrient and precursor chemical balance are completely different in juice compared to wort) increase perceived sweetness. There are also some wine yeasts that will enhance fruit flavours but their effect is much more subtle than a beer yeast although they are designed to work in a juice environment (different juice but still more similar than wort) so they may actually work better. Have a look in your local brewshop and see what they have. Unfortunately, most of the really interesting wine strains are only available in bulk kilo packs for professional use.

Ok... so a recipe.

Lets go for 90% apple juice and 10% pear. Ferment with either a good wine yeast that enhances fruit or an ale yeast. After fermentation, you can taste and add lactose to bump up the sweetness further if necessary. You will also probably want to add a little malic acid to bring things back into balance. Add a tiny bit, taste, add more. Stop a little short of where you think it needs to be as its really easy to overshoot.

Give something like that a go and start tweaking. It will take a while to dial in exactly what you like. You may need to add more pear or less pear or you don't like the esters from the yeast so need to try a different one. Each batch change one thing (only one thing so you know what made the difference) and start to bring it closer to what you are after. You can post your experiments and help others learn from what you are doing.

Cheers
Dave
Wow.. Dave you are a legend. You should write a book.

This sounds pretty good, I have tinned pear juice.. do you recommend fresh or store bought? and I have many different yeasts, I even have a smack pack of some fruity ale yeast.

I have been trying to log in all week to see what you had and the site was down.. so glad its up again.

Thank you for all your great advice, will get my ingredients on the weekend and see what I can do.. might even post a few pics.
 
Books are too much work.. I'll stick to writing difinitivish guides for now.

Working on a guide to sweet cider at the moment. Will get it up over the weekend after I have juiced 50kg of apples for this year's batch.

On the pear juice, as long as it is preservative free you should be right. Juicing fresh pears will be a bunch of work without the right gear so shop bought would be easiest for you. I use fresh pears because I just chuck a few kilos of pears in with my apples.

Cheers
Dave
 
Chookers said:
Wow.. Dave you are a legend. You should write a book.

This sounds pretty good, I have tinned pear juice.. do you recommend fresh or store bought? and I have many different yeasts, I even have a smack pack of some fruity ale yeast.

I have been trying to log in all week to see what you had and the site was down.. so glad its up again.

Thank you for all your great advice, will get my ingredients on the weekend and see what I can do.. might even post a few pics.
This is a recipe I made using the canned pear juice and I love it... Was a bit pricey so I made a small batch. I have since slowly accumulated enough juice for a 23L brew which I hope to put down soon for a cold ferment with Nottingham yeast.

I have posted this before in case you feel a little deja vu...

Here's my brew notes…

1 Dec 2012 - 1715 hrs
1 Gallon Batch

200g dark brown sugar
1 kg of Pear halves mashed in
own juice
1 tsp yeast nutrient
Topped up with canned Pear
juice (4.5 x 850mL cans used)
5g pectinol
EC-1118 yeast rehydrated

OG - 1065

7 Dec 2012
Stopped bubbling. Racked off fruit and lees.

SG - 1010

Topped up with 850mL can pear juice, 5 g pectinol, 7g malic acid,
1/2 tsp vanilla essence, 1 cup apple juice (apple juice used as no more pear on hand).

15 Dec 2012
Stopped bubbling again, left to age.

11 Feb 2013
Cold crashed

16 Feb 2013
1010 after crash
Backsweeten / prime 3/4 cup pear juice conc.
1024 after backsweeten / prime.

29 March 2013
First taste of final product, PASS!!!
 
Thanks Fossey, will give your recipe a try... once I get all my gear freed up.. sounds like a winner..

See how the 90% Apple : 10% Pear works out first.

:D

I hope these next attempt are more successful than my first.

Thanks to all for your ideas and recipes.
 
I've always found 100% pear to be too sweet but then I like a dry cider. YMMV. Its a matter of finding a blend that you like.

Cheers
Dave
 
Airgead said:
You coul;d try pulling a little once its fermented then diluting that to whatever ratio you want. Taste the sample and see what its like. If its horrid then you will be drinking 8% cider. If its good, dilute the rest of the batch.

Pear will sweeten a bit but you already have a whole lot going on there. I'd let it ferment out, see where it ends (those kits sometimes have some non fermentables added anyway) then decide what to do.

Cheers
Dave

Edit - Finings.... wait till fermentation has stopped. When the yeast is active it will be churning things up anyway. It should all drop clear once fermentation stops even without finings.
Thanks Dave, I did as instructed and it cleared up very nicely.

Ended up adding 1L of pear juice (goulburn valley preservative free) which was around 5% of batch volume. Tasted good, especially considering its 8%, i will report back in a couple of weeks once bottle carbonated. Froma bit of experimentation i found the pear taste too prevalent with any more than 5% in the mix.
 
yes, I once made a 100% from the Goulburn valley tinned juice... I left it too long and it turned in to something closer to wine.. I wasn't happy with the flavour but bottled it none the less and shoved it under the house to forget about.. I haven't tried it in years. I seem to do this a lot make stuff the tastes horrendous..bottle it and forget about it.. but sometimes things get better, like some Barely Wine I made tasted gastly.. and I let that ferment until it stopped and then I bottled and forgot about it, the other day I opened a bottle and now it tastes quite good and somehow its become fizzy.. I wonder if this was malolactic fermentation as it had definitely stopped fermenting before I bottled it.. unfortunately I only made 4Lts of the stuff but threw some away so time worked its magic on 2 bottles only.. Why did I throw it away.

I hope the same miracle has happened on my pear wine.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top