Cold crash query

[mtb]

Why take the risk at all though manticle? Does it contribute some benefit that makes it worthwhile? If not, it's risk without reward.

Brewnicorn, the gelatin hyperlink I mentioned in one of my earlier responses will give you a great wealth of info, but my method in a nutshell is to simply add the gelatin/water mixture when I dial down the fridge to begin the cold crash. Leave it for 48h minimum. Moving the vessel after this point will agitate the settled bed of crud so avoid if at all possible, leave the fermenter in your fridge and bottle from there. If you decide to follow that advice, when you start the cold crash, make sure the fermenter is on a high shelf so bottling isn't such a pain in the ass.

 

[manticle]

Yeah it does carry a reward - otherwise I'm firmly in the camp of don't.

Clarity of final product being achieved without using particular additives is a major one. Clarity affects flavour of product and particulate matter can cause gushing.

Certainly for bulk priming, having tried both methods, my experience suggests transfer works best.

Any beer that requires a decent aging period is better transferred from the bulk of the yeast at the right point.

Up to the brewer of course but my point is that if you're getting oxidised character, your process rather than THE process is at fault in this instance.

 

[Kingy]

When no chilling and dry hopping I always transfer to a second fermenter to chill down. Cold break from the cube and yeast and trub and hops and other floaty **** builds up to much around my tap so I transfer it from my 23 litre fermenter into a 20litre cube so it's full to the brim and put the lid on and into the cc fridge. After a week force carb and into the gillet. I gave up on gelatine a long time ago

 

[Brewnicorn]

Contrary to popular opinion, racking to separate vessel should not be causing major issues unless you're doing it wrong.

Yes it's a risk but not a guarantee.

This is kinda on point with my original question in this thread.

The stale beer smell I get off the head of the beer. And the somewhat less flavoursome beer.
The two things that I have in common with the two most recent brews are cold crashing and using the secondary. I have done 2 control bottles in the most recent batch bottled straight from the original fermenter. Great - even just at 2 weeks after. The cold crashed versions I've left longer to condition given less yeast to bring that carbonation along. The taste, not bad. But the smell off the head foam is stale.
I've used a siphon each time and minimised the splash. It's a fermenter full of oxygen of course but as you mentioned, manticle, it's not without risk. But if oxidisation is the issue, then I'll just use the primary only in all stages cos I don't know how much more careful I can be. :-/

 

[mtb]

Re splashing, would it work better to ditch the siphon, and instead link the two outlets of your vessels with sanitised silicon hose? If you balance elevation just right between the two, flow should be slow to begin with and thus reduce splashing; after you get a few L in there you can elevate the source vessel to finish it off quickly.

No idea if that'd work better than a siphon but it's an idea, I've transferred via that method a few times and I had zero surface bubbles, whereas using a siphon caused some visible aeration.

 

[Droopy Brew]

It is worth pumping some CO2 into your secondary before transfer. Just put an airline in the bottom and give it a good purge. The heavier CO2 will force the O2 up and out. Even if you dont get it full of CO2, the lower part in contact with the beer will be. As the fermenter fills, the beer and layer of CO2 will push more of the O2 out.
It wont completely remove contact with O2 but will greatly reduce your chances of oxidation.

 

[mtb]

I recall it being mentioned by someone more educated than I, that CO2 doesn't "push" O2, rather it "mixes" - so by purging a vessel with CO2 you're essentially just increasing the CO2 concentration in the space, but O2 would remain to some markable degree.

Couldn't hurt though. And if I could get away from using gelatin to achieve clarity I think I would, because I'm certain it strips a noticable amount of hop flavour and aroma.

 

[Brewnicorn]

Yeah I'm thinking more and more about solutions here. Part of it might push me to the kegging route. I'd just love to nail the cause down.
I'll send a bottle to a willing tester from the latest batch if it turns up **** too. Feedback can't hurt.

 

[Gloveski]

Here's my dilemma. I have a partial grain stout I've had down for a week and a half in the fermenter. Fermentation is finished and I have the option of cold crashing which I'll likely do. The stout isn't a typical 'clear' beer of course but I've been reading tonight lots of people still use gelatin in stout.
For me, I like a pale but generally the clearer the better so I'm tempted to give it a run.
As a practice walk through, what comes first, initial cold crash, then add gelatin, leave to complete cold crash for a week or so and bottle. OR add gelatin, cold crash then bottle...

For me I cold crash for about a week then add gelatin and leave another 24 to 48 hours before kegging ............bottling in your case.
I also use my wort to add the gelatin to not sure if this is what other do or just use water.
I have had crystal clear beers everytime so far

 

[capsicum]

For most ales and lagers I keg and don't cold crash at all. I transfer by syphon from the (only/primary) fermenter into a keg which has a bit of gelatin/water in the bottom. It sits in my keezer for at least a week to carbonate, which I'd always considered to be equivalent of cold crashing.

After the first couple of glasses it's pretty damn clear for most beers, well clear enough for me anyway. Am I missing something by not cold crashing before kegging?

 

[mtb]

Am I missing something by not cold crashing before kegging?

If it's clear enough for you, then no, you're not missing a thing. Could be worthwhile gelatin-ing and cold crashing a batch prior to kegging though, I personally love being able to watch TV through my beer because it's literally crystal clear.

 

[Brewnicorn]

Am I missing something by not cold crashing before kegging?

I don't think so. From my limited understanding keggers get the best of this through the general refrigeration process anyways.

Here's a small sample from my last brew.

first pic is a sample glass from the keg right at the end of the 2 week fermentation, plus a week in the bottle. In the glass, cloudy as, but still nice.




Second pic is the bottom of the secondary after a week being cold crashed - all the additional yeast/trub that drops out.





third, just a sample in a glass form the post cold crash beer that i was bottling that day. Much clearer.



No bragging rights of course because i've managed to **** up the flavour across two brews so I might cold crash with no gelatin this time, using the primary and see what that gives me.

 

[Rocker1986]

I gave up on gelatine pretty quickly since it's so easily disturbed by moving the fermenter around, which I have to do to be able to keg or bottle the beer. Maybe that's why the bottles exhibited a fluffy easily disturbed sediment. Since switching to isinglass it has been a shitload better. It drops the yeast out well but rather than being jelly like it results in a very compacted sediment that doesn't easily disturb - perfect for when I have to lift the fermenter out of the fridge onto the trolley shelf to keg it. Gelatine won't be going in another batch ever again.

 

[mtb]

I think I ought to make the switch Rocker. Where do you source yours?

 

[Rocker1986]

I think I ought to make the switch Rocker. Where do you source yours?

I get it from Craftbrewer (no affil yadda yadda), just the dry stuff. I think it's sold as Vicfine now.

 

[2cranky]

I get it from Craftbrewer (no affil yadda yadda), just the dry stuff. I think it's sold as Vicfine now.

So its Collagen from cows (Gelatine) or Collagen from fish (swim bladder) - I'll stick with cows! But both are pretty gross to stick in your meticulously crafted brew. :unsure:

 

[2cranky]

By the way I'm using 1/2 teaspoon Gelatine prepared in 150ml water and added to 20 litres of beer chilled to 5c for as little as 12 hours. Then dropped to 2c and keg as little as 12 hours later. Force carb the keg for 24 hours.
So I'm going from fermenting temp to first glass in as little as 48 hours if I have to.
Clarity wise I haven't noticed any difference between this and longer times, I did one over 5 days.
I need to lift the keg out of the fridge to gravity feed into the keg but it doesn't seem to ruin the fining.
I also whirlfloc in the kettle.

The pic shows the first glass out of the keg - only poured off about 100ml before that to prime the line. It's almost as clear as commercial beer and it's 1000% better tasting!

 

[Rocker1986]

So its Collagen from cows (Gelatine) or Collagen from fish (swim bladder) - I'll stick with cows! But both are pretty gross to stick in your meticulously crafted brew. :unsure:

Yeah but for some reason the fish derived one doesn't turn the trub into jelly, which is why I prefer it

 

[Brewnicorn]

Additional queries for this thread.

1 - If the fridge I'm using to cold crash, generally maintains a steady1-3 degree range will it be ok for cold crashing and clearing up suspended yeast etc.
More the point what effect would a near zero have on flavour as opposed to an exact one? Eg: cold crash at 5 degrees or 7 etc. thinking around this as this fridge may see some traffic when I am looking to keep it steady-ish.
2 - how much additional time should you factor in to bottle conditioning after using cold crash? (anecdotally I've noticed a difference between 2 weeks [****] and 2 months [better flavour better carb])

Thoughts criticisms and haranguing welcomed.

 

[manticle]

1-3 will be fine. Closest to zero is best but it just needs to be cool enough for the yeast to go dormant and start falling out of suspension (and other debris will also fall out of suspension with time and gravity).

Not sure what you're asking with 2. I find cold conditioning leads to a cleaner tasting beer sooner than packaging without. Unless you do it for months, there'll be enough yeast still in suspension to carb up in the usual amount of time, give or take.