Closed transfer into keg with a coupler

[Henry viii]

Hi Guys

I have Sanke kegs that use a S type coupler. I'm not sure if I am doing my closed transfer correctly. Can I leave the gas port open (ie without the "duck bill" check value) or do I need to use a spunding valve? My theory is that the keg is full of Co2 which will be displaced when the beers flows in. As a result no oxygen can get in so there's no need for spunding valve.

My process is:

1. Purge the keg of oxygen - fill it with sanitiser, connect the Co2 and when the sanitiser spurts out, I know the keg is full of Co2.
2. Connect the gas to the fermenter
3. Connect the fermenter beer out to the keg beer in
4. Turn the gas on and watch the beer flow

Any thoughts?

Most of the comments I see relate to corny kegs.

I apologise if this has been answered elsewhere - just point me in the right direction.

 

[razz]

It depends on if the beer is already carbonated Henry. If it is flat then follow the procedure you outlined.

 

[Henry viii]

So I'm guessing that if I pressure ferment so the beer is not flat, I would need a spunding valve on the gas side of the coupler? If so, do you know why this'd be necessary?

 

[MHB]

Commercial kegs are made to be cleaned upside down! If you try and clean or sanitise on the floor you will leave a bit of chemical in the keg.

Here is a picture of a glass carboy being cleaned through a spear. The cleaning process is designed to wash all of the sides, top and bottom at the same time. Which you can’t be sure will happen if you don’t invert the keg. They are also made to allow every trace of cleaner and sanitiser to be blown out when inverted.

I would take a long hard look at what you are using to clean and sanitise. Most breweries use ~2% hot caustic soda solution. I'm not going to recommend that for home brewers, unless you really do know what you are doing.
Caustic is really dangerous, doubly so when hot. It also reacts with CO2 very quickly which reduces the cleaning power and consumes any CO2 in the keg. Commercial cleaning step 1/ is to invert the keg, vent it to blow out any residual beer, 2/ is to rinse with water, then use compressed air to blow out any water and CO2....
It really is a process that you need to understand and do properly or you won’t get clean sanitary kegs and your beer will get infected.
I would recommend cleaning with PBW (or similar, my local has one custom made called BBW that I think is better), but be very thorough.

Be careful with your sanitiser too. Some use Oxygen as a sanitiser and you don’t want any Chlorine but you do want to sanitise the keg properly after cleaning.

Pretty much whatever way you go about it the keg won’t be full of CO2 when you are finished so you will need to purge it with CO2. Kegs are usually pressurised to the same as the beer then the CO2 is slowly vented off, allowing the beer to flow in gently so it doesn’t foam. Most other processes will give you about half a keg of beer and the other half foam and a major pain in the arse...

The couplers made by some of the "Popular" retailers around here are totally useless for keg cleaning as they only have 4 holes in the gas skirt instead of the 20 odd on proper commercial keg couplers, might be OK for dispensing but useless for cleaning.

For home brewers the A type is probably the best choice, they can be modified so the spear assembly can be removed easily for cleaning. It would be worth your while changing early on as it will make your life a whole lot easier.
Mark

 

[djebel]

Is there a reason you're not doing a closed transfer?

 

[Henry viii]

Thanks for the info Mark re cleaning. I currently remove the spear, soak with PBW, scrub if necessary, rinse, and sanitise. Seems to work ok.

My uncertainty was about my current method I use for closed transfers. Razz said my process is fine (ie leave the gas port on the coupler open) if the beer is not carbonated. What if the beer is carbonated ie pressure fermented?

 

[djebel]

Thanks for the info Mark re cleaning. I currently remove the spear, soak with PBW, scrub if necessary, rinse, and sanitise. Seems to work ok.

My uncertainty was about my current method I use for closed transfers. Razz said my process is fine (ie leave the gas port on the coupler open) if the beer is not carbonated. What if the beer is carbonated ie pressure fermented?

Sorry, I meant a counter flow transfer. As beer flows from liquid-liquid connection, gas flows the other way in a closed loop. Rather than forcing the transfer using gas pressure and venting to atmosphere.

 

[razz]

So I'm guessing that if I pressure ferment so the beer is not flat, I would need a spunding valve on the gas side of the coupler? If so, do you know why this'd be necessary?

You need the spunding valve with a carbonated beer so that CO2 doesn’t break out of solution during the transfer. If that happens the keg will have a lot of foam. Generally if your beer is carbonated to approx 50kpa then the spunding valve will be set just below this pressure.
I need to correct myself, what I do in my own system is I set spunding valve to same pressure as carbonated beer and then when I push beer out of fermenter with CO2 I run the gas a bit higher than the fermenter pressure. That will stop the gas coming out of solution in the keg.

 

[MHB]

I would put a tap on the coupler, you can get them for less than $20 and pressurise the keg to the same as the beer. That way the beer will flow gently when you crack the valve. This will help stop the beer foaming.

A spunding valve would do pretty much the same thing but are more expensive and probably give you less control.
Mark

I would go with one of these this from KK but plenty of other options.

 

[Henry viii]

Thanks for the info Mark re cleaning. I currently remove the spear, soak with PBW, scrub if necessary, rinse, and sanitise. Seems to work ok.

My uncertainty was about my current method I use for closed transfers. Razz said my process is fine (ie leave the gas port on the coupler open) if the beer is not carbonated. What if the beer is carbonated ie pressure fermented?

 

[Henry viii]

Thanks guys, I think I get it now!

 

[Vic]

Hi Guys

I have Sanke kegs that use a S type coupler. I'm not sure if I am doing my closed transfer correctly. Can I leave the gas port open (ie without the "duck bill" check value) or do I need to use a spunding valve? My theory is that the keg is full of Co2 which will be displaced when the beers flows in. As a result no oxygen can get in so there's no need for spunding valve.

My process is:

1. Purge the keg of oxygen - fill it with sanitiser, connect the Co2 and when the sanitiser spurts out, I know the keg is full of Co2.
2. Connect the gas to the fermenter
3. Connect the fermenter beer out to the keg beer in
4. Turn the gas on and watch the beer flow

Any thoughts?

Most of the comments I see relate to corny kegs.

I apologise if this has been answered elsewhere - just point me in the right direction.

If the receiving keg is COMPLETELY purged of oxygen then why waste gas on pushing the beer into it. Does not matter if it is carbed or not. Make sure the pressure in the receiving keg is a equal or a bit higher than in the fermenter. Connect the fermenter gas post to the keg gas post and use a diaphragm pump to transfer from Fermenter to keg.

This pump is a good choice. Super Sucker - Siphon Pump (1/2' BSP) - including Power supply | | KegLand