Chinese Hops? What Next

[OzMick]

domonsura, I notice that you sell UK, US, Czech and German hops. What makes China have any less of a right to export hops than any of the "traditional" growing nations? I don't see the Czechs sponsoring local events or spending their profits over here. Or are you just racist/xenophobic?

Pumpy, I guess that a couple hundred years ago you'd have still found yourself immigrating to Australia, albeit as a member of the First Fleet. You'd have fit right in, what with stealing kegs and all. Hypocrites. Prepared to bag others as cheapskates for conducting a legitimate business transaction, but stealing to stick it to "the man", that is fair game?

 

[troopa]

Dom and im sure a fair few other LHBS around all feel the same as you do
But can i tell you something that i HOPE you already know
1. Its my damn money
2. I spend more money on my Home brewing then any other hobby or even work related gear (Tools and clothes) and in fact i spend teh majority of my money that i have spare on home brew related gear and products

I dont know many other organisations or bussiness that get repeat business of $100-$200 a month from an individual person except the telephone company and the supermarket

My alchole bill before going 100% home brew was 1.5 cartons a week and a bottle f scotch every 2 weeks as well as 2-4 bottles of wine

that now all primarly goes to my LHBS and i bet almost every Other brewer here was/is the same.. FARK you cant complain at that can you

What I/We do with our income and how wish to spend it is our business

And to that fact if Businesses didnt stop the bulk buys from companies like elderslie hops then we would likly be buying from them
But you stopped that from happening

get of your High Horse and go Troll else where

Tom

 

[domonsura]

domonsura, I notice that you sell UK, US, Czech and German hops. What makes China have any less of a right to export hops than any of the "traditional" growing nations? I don't see the Czechs sponsoring local events or spending their profits over here. Or are you just racist/xenophobic?

Racist? Why does it always come down to that? The hops could be coming from Timbuktu, it would make no difference to this argument and your accusation of racism is unfounded and way out of line - I at no point said "don't support it because it's "CHINA", nor have I expressed any dislike of anyone of asian descent, nor have I said "The hops are shit because they are from China" (unlike some). I don't think I deserve your accusation in any sense and find it offensive as all hell.

The fact is that the hops are probably of perfectly acceptable quality - what I said is that HBS's are not likely to take the risk, in context of comparison to hops from suppliers that have proved their quality over time.

German, UK and US hops come via my supplier/s, and have a long history of being involved with the brewing industry - hence considerable market credibility. . They are also not attempting to flood the local market with hops at a fraction of the current prices (as I said over which the HBS has no control) . This is no different than grey market flooding of the local market with any other product at the expense of local businesses and markets ie: vegetables, citrus and so on so on. If you have nothing other than that with which to sensationalise your response perhaps you are missing the point i was trying to make here.
I buy my hops based on what I get asked for mate.........I have NEVER been asked for Marco Polo hops or any other Chinese grown hops, and I have no need to investigate new suppliers - my current ones as I said are doing a bang up job and I will continue to support them.

 

[domonsura]

Dom and im sure a fair few other LHBS around all feel the same as you do
But can i tell you something that i HOPE you already know
1. Its my damn money
2. I spend more money on my Home brewing then any other hobby or even work related gear (Tools and clothes) and in fact i spend teh majority of my money that i have spare on home brew related gear and products

I dont know many other organisations or bussiness that get repeat business of $100-$200 a month from an individual person except the telephone company and the supermarket

My alchole bill before going 100% home brew was 1.5 cartons a week and a bottle f scotch every 2 weeks as well as 2-4 bottles of wine

that now all primarly goes to my LHBS and i bet almost every Other brewer here was/is the same.. FARK you cant complain at that can you

What I/We do with our income and how wish to spend it is our business

And to that fact if Businesses didnt stop the bulk buys from companies like elderslie hops then we would likly be buying from them
But you stopped that from happening

get of your High Horse and go Troll else where

Tom

a: I have never stopped any bulk buy, including anything to do with ellerslie hops. NOTHING TO DO WITH ME SO GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BUDDY.
b: Yes it is your money - never said it wasn't.
c: No high horse here, Graham Sanders currently has the high horse according to his broadcast.......
d: This is not trolling - this is presenting another point of view as I thought I was allowed to do. Trolling would be making unfounded, and biased criticism in order to create conflict. If that is how you have interpreted my post, that's a shame.

 

[davewaldo]

If I enjoy these Chinese hops I will be encouraging my LHBS to stock Chinese hops. So in a way this BB is helping HBS by testing the product. As you say HBSs don't want to take the risk. If this BB is successful and the product is good I would imagine the interest in Chinese hops will raise considerably. It may then be the case that HBSs will want to stock them as a cheap alternative. I would rather buy cheap Chinese hops from my LHBS than through a BB any day even at twice the BB price. But that isn't an option at this time.

Just my feelings...

 

[BennyBrewster]

Chinese hops = $10/kg
Others = $80-130/kg

Just curious as to who is it thats making all the money on that markup?

LHBSs ?
Importers ?
Farmers ?

I would guess the importers.

 

[davewaldo]

I think there would also be a wholesaler/agent between farmer and importer too. They would take a sizeble share I'd think. Also the difference in manufacture costs between china and the US would be vast.

 

[peas_and_corn]

I'd be willing to wager that along the supply chain the retailer and farmer gets the smallest slice <_<

 

[Luka]

domonsura, I notice that you sell UK, US, Czech and German hops. What makes China have any less of a right to export hops than any of the "traditional" growing nations? I don't see the Czechs sponsoring local events or spending their profits over here. Or are you just racist/xenophobic?

:angry:
That's a very unfair and out of line statement to make, there was absolutely nothing racist about Domonsura's post. China, like anywhere else has every right to export whatever the hell it likes and we as consumers have the right to buy them. I believe what domonsuras saying is that he has reputable product and relationships with suppliers that he trusts and feels good about selling to his customers and doesnt want/need to import these chinese hops. Its very easy to sling accustaions around and call people racist but not necessary in anyway, shape or form.

 

[domonsura]

If I enjoy these Chinese hops I will be encouraging my LHBS to stock Chinese hops. So in a way this BB is helping HBS by testing the product. As you say HBSs don't want to take the risk. If this BB is successful and the product is good I would imagine the interest in Chinese hops will raise considerably. It may then be the case that HBSs will want to stock them as a cheap alternative. I would rather buy cheap Chinese hops from my LHBS than through a BB any day even at twice the price. But that isn't an option at this time.

Just my feelings...

Understood. I can also see it that way, it's a fair point of view to take.

When I said risk, what I meant was that in order for this to really be a viable thing for a HBS in the fashion that Graham suggests (from my perspective only, please don't anyone interpret this as me trying to speak for any other HBS because their situations are/will be different), we kind of have to have a market to sell them into fairly quickly when it comes to a new hop, as in my opinion no favours are being done to the hops if the vast majority of the shipment is going to sit there for months on end deteriorating before the end user gets to brew with them. I have had some experience with trying to get a few more NZ whole flower hops onto the local market, and I have to say that I either used or gave away most of the first buy of whole flower hops that I got in, as simply put.....no-one bought them. No matter, I made a huge number of Hallertau Pacific, B-Saaz and Pacific Gem brews, and over time some some of the other local guys got into them, with some now staunch followers who refuse to use anything else. But to cut a long story short, it was a considerable investment that is simply put 'not in the budget' for a great many HBS. At the time my wife thought I was crazy, and my neighbours thought I was dealing drugs (At the time I only remember opening my first 5kg vacpac of flowers and being in love with these little green gems inside, which is why on a primal homebrewer level I envy the guys who get to break down 200kg-500kg of hops - and I also understand how much work this is really going to be for those involved, bagging even that minimum weight of hops.)
I'm not trying to stop the buy -
a: because I couldn't if I tried, nor do I really want to in all honesty because i respect the right of the consumer to make the decisions.
b: I'm personally a little curious. (So sue me)

I just think that there's a huge difference between an investigatory purchase to check that the quality is OK and everything is kosher, and then telling your local retailer that you are aware of them, and might like to buy them if he can get them - and say...buying half a tonne and dumping it on a number of local markets at the same time right across a country. It's just another point of view, I'm just saying in general that some caution is due with respect to both the quality with a new product, and also in terms of all the effects that product and it's pricing will have on the businesses that supply a number of things for you should you choose to purchase from them, but may reasonably heavily depend on the income stream from that product. This is turning into a very large buy in my opinion, it is likely to have several effects, possibly not all of them good. That's all. Just a small voice of reason, a 'turkey' sticking it's neck out in a room full of axes. (I'm sure that even as I type this, people are posting me to bits for having the gall...)

and yes, I got stuck into Graham a little but he can handle it - I'm sure it's old hat as he doesn't mince his words either. My problem is with the 'stick it to the LHBS that's ripping me off' mentality that has been projected. Not all HBS are like that...there's a big gap between us and certain other chain brewing stores, and that's deliberate on my behalf. Broad statements from those with an audience, tar us with the same brush as those we are trying to be least like.

 

[dre]

To quote Sammus on post #16, Yet another RACIST f*wit here on this forum.

Comments within thread have been fraught with blatant racism and prejudice which started right from post #5

Domonsura and other racists here, Dont go blaming the Chinese for what people on this board decide to do with their own money. And dont go labelling the Chinese as if theyre stealing Australian livelihoods. If you want someone to blame, then blame those who dont buy Australian. Blame the so-called Australian companies like Testra and Pacific Brands for taking business away from Australia. Blame the Australians on this bulk-buy for not supporting Australian businesses like yours and stop scape-goating the Chinese for the actions of Australian consumerism.

You say that Chinese hops arent likely to have the same quality as us/euro counter parts. What direct evidence do you base this? Have you used Chinese hop? I doubt you have yet you consider them inferior.

You query whether Chinese hop sellers sponsor local brewing markets or competitions in Australia yet you dont even query the same of American, german, czech, or English hop sellers. If youre so concerned with Australian businesses and livelihoods then why arent you only selling Australian hops? Practice what you preach!

You continue to rant that you will EVER use, stock or sell Chinese hops and could care less if they are cheap or even free. You wouldnt even stock them if they were free to you? If there ever was a racist comment! What if Chinese hops are of equal or higher quality (whatever quality means to you), than your Superior us and euro hops? Will you then at least try them, or will your xenophobic predjucies show its face again?

And for those other racists who have bagged Chinese hops purely because they're Chinese or without direct evidence of its quality, I wonder if youve put your name down for this bulk buy???????????????

 

[Effect]

some people just have nfi how business works...and any advice/explaination falls on deaf ears.

Go along with your bulk buy, nobody wants to stop you (not even your LHBS or craftbrewer, or even unfoundly domonsura).

 

[Luka]

Chinese hops = $10/kg
Others = $80-130/kg

Just curious as to who is it thats making all the money on that markup?

LHBSs ?
Importers ?
Farmers ?

I would guess the importers.

This might help shed some light on that...

Germany is the dominant hop-growing nation in Europe with 3600 growers cultivating 23,000 hectares of hops. The average farm size is 6.4 hectares, about half that of the UK and New Zealand.

The marketing of hops in Germany is under the control of large German hop merchants. There is no statutory organisation or Board to Control the marketing of hops either domestically or internationally.

It seems that growers would sell to merchants, who I expect process the hops to their various forms. They most likely sell it to large wholesalers who sell to smaller ones who sell to retailers. Add in freight costs, admin, staff costs etc etc and you'll probably find that like most supply chains the producer usually gets about the same as everyone else and we as consumers pay 100%.

 

[Effect]

To quote Sammus on post #16, Yet another "RACIST f*wit" here on this forum.

Comments within thread have been fraught with blatant racism and prejudice which started right from post #5

Domonsura and other racists here, Don't go blaming the Chinese for what people on this board decide to do with their own money. And don't go labelling the Chinese as if they're stealing "Australian" livelihoods. If you want someone to blame, then blame those who don't buy "Australian". Blame the so-called "Australian" companies like Testra and Pacific Brands for taking business away from Australia. Blame the Australians on this bulk-buy for not supporting Australian businesses like yours and stop scape-goating the Chinese for the actions of Australian consumerism.

You say that Chinese hops aren't likely to have the same quality as us/euro counter parts. What direct evidence do you base this? Have you used Chinese hop? I doubt you have yet you consider them inferior.

You query whether Chinese hop sellers sponsor local brewing markets or competitions in Australia yet you don't even query the same of American, german, czech, or English hop sellers. If you're so concerned with Australian businesses and livelihoods then why aren't you only selling Australian hops? Practice what you preach!

You continue to rant that you "will EVER use, stock or sell Chinese hops" and could "care less if they are cheap or even free". You wouldn't even stock them if they were free to you? If there ever was a racist comment! What if Chinese hops are of equal or higher quality (whatever quality means to you), than your "Superior" us and euro hops? Will you then at least try them, or will your xenophobic predjucies show its face again?

And for those other racists who have bagged Chinese hops purely because they're Chinese or without direct evidence of its quality, I wonder if you've put your name down for this bulk buy???????????????

sober up, and only then use your keyboard...there is no logic behind your argument.

 

[Effect]

It seems that growers would sell to merchants, who I expect process the hops to their various forms. They most likely sell it to large wholesalers who sell to smaller ones who sell to retailers. Add in freight costs, admin, staff costs etc etc and you'll probably find that like most supply chains the producer usually gets about the same as everyone else and we as consumers pay 100%.

And that is how they calculate the GDP...nothing new there.

 

[dre]

I buy my hops based on what I get asked for mate.........I have NEVER been asked for Marco Polo hops or any other Chinese grown hops, and I have no need to investigate new suppliers - my current ones as I said are doing a bang up job and I will continue to support them.

If say your current suppliers who are doing a ban up job (whoever these suppliers are) began supplying Chinese hops and encouraged you to purchase and stock Marco Polo or any other Chinese grown hops, whether they be Chinese grown Cascade, Saaz, Goldings, or Hallertau at the current "bulk-buy" prices, and assured you that they are of equal or better quality than the us and euro hops by means of quantitative and qualitative analyses ...........would you then stock Chinese hops?

 

[troopa]

Understood. I can also see it that way, it's a fair point of view to take.

When I said risk, what I meant was that in order for this to really be a viable thing for a HBS in the fashion that Graham suggests (from my perspective only, please don't anyone interpret this as me trying to speak for any other HBS because their situations are/will be different), we kind of have to have a market to sell them into fairly quickly when it comes to a new hop, as in my opinion no favours are being done to the hops if the vast majority of the shipment is going to sit there for months on end deteriorating before the end user gets to brew with them. I have had some experience with trying to get a few more NZ whole flower hops onto the local market, and I have to say that I either used or gave away most of the first buy of whole flower hops that I got in, as simply put.....no-one bought them. No matter, I made a huge number of Hallertau Pacific, B-Saaz and Pacific Gem brews, and over time some some of the other local guys got into them, with some now staunch followers who refuse to use anything else. But to cut a long story short, it was a considerable investment that is simply put 'not in the budget' for a great many HBS. At the time my wife thought I was crazy, and my neighbours thought I was dealing drugs (At the time I only remember opening my first 5kg vacpac of flowers and being in love with these little green gems inside, which is why on a primal homebrewer level I envy the guys who get to break down 200kg-500kg of hops - and I also understand how much work this is really going to be for those involved, bagging even that minimum weight of hops.)
I'm not trying to stop the buy -
a: because I couldn't if I tried, nor do I really want to in all honesty because i respect the right of the consumer to make the decisions.
b: I'm personally a little curious. (So sue me)

I just think that there's a huge difference between an investigatory purchase to check that the quality is OK and everything is kosher, and then telling your local retailer that you are aware of them, and might like to buy them if he can get them - and say...buying half a tonne and dumping it on a number of local markets at the same time right across a country. It's just another point of view, I'm just saying in general that some caution is due with respect to both the quality with a new product, and also in terms of all the effects that product and it's pricing will have on the businesses that supply a number of things for you should you choose to purchase from them, but may reasonably heavily depend on the income stream from that product. This is turning into a very large buy in my opinion, it is likely to have several effects, possibly not all of them good. That's all. Just a small voice of reason, a 'turkey' sticking it's neck out in a room full of axes. (I'm sure that even as I type this, people are posting me to bits for having the gall...)

and yes, I got stuck into Graham a little but he can handle it - I'm sure it's old hat as he doesn't mince his words either. My problem is with the 'stick it to the LHBS that's ripping me off' mentality that has been projected. Not all HBS are like that...there's a big gap between us and certain other chain brewing stores, and that's deliberate on my behalf. Broad statements from those with an audience, tar us with the same brush as those we are trying to be least like.

Domonsura i do have to appoligise for my comment on that remark as you are right there and i shouldnt have pointed fingers at all

Sorry Mate

Tom

 

[Sammus]

I have had some experience with trying to get a few more NZ whole flower hops onto the local market, and I have to say that I either used or gave away most of the first buy of whole flower hops that I got in

I remember getting a 100g pack of green bullet flowers in the mail for christmas a little while ago. Made one of my favourite beers yet

 

[domonsura]

To quote Sammus on post #16, Yet another RACIST f*wit here on this forum.

Comments within thread have been fraught with blatant racism and prejudice which started right from post #5

Domonsura and other racists here, Dont go blaming the Chinese for what people on this board decide to do with their own money. And dont go labelling the Chinese as if theyre stealing Australian livelihoods. If you want someone to blame, then blame those who dont buy Australian. Blame the so-called Australian companies like Testra and Pacific Brands for taking business away from Australia. Blame the Australians on this bulk-buy for not supporting Australian businesses like yours and stop scape-goating the Chinese for the actions of Australian consumerism.

You say that Chinese hops arent likely to have the same quality as us/euro counter parts. What direct evidence do you base this? Have you used Chinese hop? I doubt you have yet you consider them inferior.

You query whether Chinese hop sellers sponsor local brewing markets or competitions in Australia yet you dont even query the same of American, german, czech, or English hop sellers. If youre so concerned with Australian businesses and livelihoods then why arent you only selling Australian hops? Practice what you preach!

You continue to rant that you will EVER use, stock or sell Chinese hops and could care less if they are cheap or even free. You wouldnt even stock them if they were free to you? If there ever was a racist comment! What if Chinese hops are of equal or higher quality (whatever quality means to you), than your Superior us and euro hops? Will you then at least try them, or will your xenophobic predjucies show its face again?

And for those other racists who have bagged Chinese hops purely because they're Chinese or without direct evidence of its quality, I wonder if youve put your name down for this bulk buy???????????????

Mate - take a chill pill. You need one. You have totally mi-interpreted my post. I didn't question the quality, what i said exactly, and I quote, was " Are the Chinese varieties likely to be much like their US/EURO counterparts? Who knows, but not likely." I spoke with experience that hops grown in a region not native them react in accordance to differing climate, resulting in a hop with different characteristics. Happens all the time with Aussie and Kiwi hops, and in fact with hops grown within the same country but in different regions. The Chinese hops will not necessarily have the same character as people would expect if they were expecting something like US Cascade to turn up. And i was talking to the people making the bulk buy, not hassling people in Asia - so BTF off and get off your racist bandwagon. I am not a racist. I stock what I get asked for, and currently I have no source of these hops of any description, and the reality is that a shitload of them are about to get imported, and it will likely be just a LITTLE while before anyone actually needs any more. I also unlike most businesses don't necessarily believe in product proliferation, or 'stocking it because I can', and as I mentioned, I'm pretty happy with my suppliers. They're nice guys. i have all the hops I need Life is only as complicated as you make it man. Me opinionated? yes. definitely. Racist? Not a chance in hell. And to throw another coin in the well, my personal opinion is that Australian and NZ hops between them piss all over US and Euro hops hands down, and we don't need to look further, and we shouldn't be shipping anything from anywhere on another continent in an effort to live more organic in tune lives - but hey......life isn't perfect is it. Chill out. Have a beer. Relax. Big deep breath......

 

[Adamt]

Big deep breath......

Mmmmm... hops! :wub: