Chill Haze

[Hargie]

...yeast haze is not the same as chill haze....

....gelatine is a yeast flocculant, it has the opposite electrical charge to yeast so they are attracted to each other and clump together .They then are too heavy to stay in suspension and fall to the bottom of your ferm. Polyphenol chill haze has the same electrical charge as gelatine so the gelatine has little effect on chill haze, so i'm told... 50c protein rests ( i do them everytime) + fully converted mashes + hard 90 min boils + relatively quick chilling are my answers to chill haze free beer...

 

[Jye]

Gelatine works on removing yeast and as a side effect also strips chill haze, check out this PDF.

TDA you can add it to the chilled primary/secondary and rack off or add straight to the chilled beer when racking, then chuck the first pint as it will be full of yeast.

 

[SJW]

....and does gelatine only work on chill hazed beers (as Polyclar does)...or on any beer?

I only say that in my case it was chill haze as I put a little in the microwave and once it got warm it was as clear as a bell.

Steve

 

[Ross]

Gelatine works on removing yeast and as a side effect also strips chill haze, check out this PDF.

TDA you can add it to the chilled primary/secondary and rack off or add straight to the chilled beer when racking, then chuck the first pint as it will be full of yeast.

I thought gelatine was just for yeast, but happy to be educated - I can only find isinglass in that attachment Jye, where does it mention Gelatine?

cheers Ross

 

[Jye]

I thought gelatine was just for yeast, but happy to be educated - I can only find isinglass in that attachment Jye, where does it mention Gelatine?

cheers Ross

Its my understanding that isinglass and gelatine work by the same process, but isinglass is a different and more refined product.

 

[warrenlw63]

Its my understanding that isinglass and gelatine work by the same process, but isinglass is a different and more refined product.

I always thought that gelatine did the business too... This paragraph from the supplied document seems to contradict. :unsure:

The active ingredient in isinglass is the protein molecule
collagen. Collagen is a rigid, linear, triple helical
protein of molecular weight 360 kDa. As collagen
possesses a high degree of structural order, it is
temperature sensitive and is denatured at moderate
temperatures into gelatine which has little or no fining activity.
This has significant implications for the manufacture
and storage of isinglass finings. Isinglass finings
are prepared by dissolving the solid material in a dilute
food grade acid. Isinglass is also processed into powders
or pastes to obviate the need to store at low temperatures,
however isinglass solutions should always be stored at
temperatures below 20C and used within 8 weeks of
preparation.

Warren -

 

[Batz]

Gelatine is made mainly from pigs,and I seem to remember it's their hooves?
You seen what pigs stand in?



I have used gelatine in my kegs some years ago,and with exellent clearing results,I don't believe however it would remove chill haze.Best brew without chill haze at the start.

Batz

 

[SJW]

I have used gelatine in my kegs some years ago,and with exellent clearing results,I don't believe however it would remove chill haze.Best brew without chill haze at the start.

Batz

I dont understand either Batz, But from my test results, with hazy beer and a microwave, it would of appeared that I did suffer with chill haze and the Gelatine did clear it up.
I guess there is a lot of things to do with Home Brewing that we just dont understand, Yet!.

Steve

 

[randyrob]

Hey Guys,

well the dreaded chill haze has haunted my latest batch as well :-(

it came out very clear out of primary & once it has warmed up but definately has chill haze



the recipe was 65% Marris Otter, 30% Galaxy Malt & 5% Specialties.

Rob.

on my first 'chill haze' batch i was leaning towards it being the galaxy malt more than anything so was going to do a 40L batch with Marris Otter to rule that out but came out a bit short on base malt so had to chuck in Galaxy as the remainder so didn't rule out too much.

on both of these batches i've also used a hopback which i haven't used on prevoius batches so wondering if this could be part of the problem?

my next batch i'll have to sharpen up my act, use my nasa to get an extreme boil and skip out the hopback. if that doesn't help i'll have to stop using the shot-gun method
and start a proper process of elimination.

Rob 2.

 

[randyrob]

Just some pics comparing it to my last batch, both with chill haze.

 

[DaaB]

Just to confirm what has already been said, gelatine (like issinglass) is a positively charged fining and is attracted to the negatively charged yeast and pulls it out of suspension. To clear a chill haze you need a negatively charged fining or axillary fining to attach itself to the positively charged proteins. The two should be used in separate vessels or at the least each one should be allowed to work fully before adding the next otherwise they cancel each other out.
As I only use the one vessel for fermentation and often use gelatine or isinglass I prefer not to use Aux fining's and instead find a hard boil 10 mins or so past the hot break before adding the hops helps a lot (it can also cause the the filter I put over my hop strainer to block so its definately doing something), after that, to fully chill proof it a couple of weeks in the fridge while it's force carbonated works for me.

Good Isinglass used correctly works within a few days, sometimes in as little as 24hrs, gelatine a little longer. I suspect the beers that have apparently had the chill haze cleared using gelatine are actually being cleared by cold conditioning.

No mention of gelatine afaik but there's some interesting stuff here on finings http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/BrewingArticles/AllBright.htm

 

[sathid]

Hey Guys,

i've moved from Cannington to East Cannington but my brewing gear moved from Cannington To East Vic Park.

I live in/near east vic park, and the water here has a LOT of dissolved salts. You should see my kettle

I have not used the tap water here for brewing yet.

 

[Screwtop]

Made an English Bitter recently (Ross'recipe with a couple of tweaks) and used Windsor to give the fruity flavour profile I was after, low OG so no worries with the low AA% characteristics of this yeast finished at 14 AA% of 63.2% ABV of 3.25. Exactly what I wanted low ABV drinker with a ton of flavour, doesn't give away the fact that it's 3.25ABV.

When first kegged it went into CC for a week, first pour after carbonating was murky and tasted of the yeast, not the esters it produced, the beer tasted dull, could hardly taste the hops. Waited a few days and then added Gelatine to the keg on the advice of Jye and a few others on here. Within 36 hours the beer was pouring better, certainly changed the flavour for the better the beer did not taste like yeast, the beautiful fruity esters were now in there and the hop flavour was bright, the beer was not dull anymore. There was a little haze which went away once the beer reached about 12C so it had some chill haze. After a week in the keg this had gone alltogether, no amount of chilling/cold conditioning I know of will reduce chill haze, so I have to assume the Gelatine does the job long term. Have used Polyclar before and the result is very fast, about 24 hrs, faster if filtered.

Screwy

 

[Jye]

Great to hear Screwy and I definitely know what you mean by a brighter hop flavour.

A quick question about haze produced by hops. In my experience it does not disappear when the beer is warmed like chill haze, has anyone else experienced the same?

 

[browndog]

Yes Jye,
I've noticed on occasion when dry hopping that I end up with a haze that lasts to the last drop of the keg. Even adding polyclar before kegging does not fix the problem. I don't add my hops with a square mouth shovel like you but am known to use "metric handfulls" and I have been thinking that the dry hopping has been affecting my clarity.

cheers

Browndog

 

[sathid]

I always thought that gelatine did the business too... This paragraph from the supplied document seems to contradict. :unsure:

The active ingredient in isinglass is the protein molecule
collagen. Collagen is a rigid, linear, triple helical
protein of molecular weight 360 kDa. As collagen
possesses a high degree of structural order, it is
temperature sensitive and is denatured at moderate
temperatures into gelatine which has little or no fining activity.
This has significant implications for the manufacture
and storage of isinglass finings. Isinglass finings
are prepared by dissolving the solid material in a dilute
food grade acid. Isinglass is also processed into powders
or pastes to obviate the need to store at low temperatures,
however isinglass solutions should always be stored at
temperatures below 20C and used within 8 weeks of
preparation.

Warren -

Isinglass finings are used extensively as a processing aid in the British brewing industry to accelerate the fining, or clarification, of beer. They are used particularly in the production of cask-conditioned beers, known as real ale, although there are a few cask ales available which are not fined using isinglass. The finings, a pure form of gelatin, flocculate the live yeast in the beer into a spongy mass, which settles to the bottom of the cask. Left to itself, beer will clear naturally; however, the use of isinglass finings accelerates the process. Isinglass is sometimes used with an auxiliary fining, which further accelerates the process of sedimentation.

It's from Wikipedia, so most certainly not infallible, but from my reading it seems both gelatine and isinglass areboth protiens similar to collagen.

 

[Pumpy]

Pumpy,

You need to add to the beer when it's as cold as possible, I chill beer to 0c. For maximum viability rehydrate the polyclar in some water (half cup - I use boiled water as it has less oxygen) for 60 mins & keep it agitated (as in using a stirplate or swirling in a bottle). Then simply pour over surface of the beer & allow to settle through the beer overnight. If you have transfered your beer to say a keg & are in tending to filter, the polyclar can be stirred in & only needs 10 minutes contact time.

Cheers Ross

Thanks Hoges & Ross

I am happy with the results of Polycar in my batch of Little Creatures bright ale it helps me in my aim to 'reduce the lead time' from fermenter via filter to keg system to get 'fresh beer' with the minimal time exposed to the air and ready for drinking.


Pumpy

 

[Gnome]

I'm about to rip my hair out, I got haze in 2 different beers both had hard boils, added irish moss, pH was 5.2, chilled with cfc, and filtered prior to kegging (massive difference in clarity between in and out lines of the filter), now i gotta show up to my sisters wedding with hazy beer!

 

[Pumpy]

I'm about to rip my hair out, I got haze in 2 different beers both had hard boils, added irish moss, pH was 5.2, chilled with cfc, and filtered prior to kegging (massive difference in clarity between in and out lines of the filter), now i gotta show up to my sisters wedding with hazy beer!

Gnome , you supplying the whole wedding guests with beer !!!!!!.

Give them the clearest keg first
After then they wont know what they are drinking put the hazy ones on .

PUMPY

 

[Ross]

I'm about to rip my hair out, I got haze in 2 different beers both had hard boils, added irish moss, pH was 5.2, chilled with cfc, and filtered prior to kegging (massive difference in clarity between in and out lines of the filter), now i gotta show up to my sisters wedding with hazy beer!

Gnome,

Check if it's chill haze, by warming a little - If it clears it's chill haze. If yhis is the case & you have a filter, simply chill the beer as cold as possible (0c is good) add polyclar, wait 10 mins & then filter into a fresh keg. All should then be sweet.

Cheers Ross