Caramel Big Time

[Mantis]

How the hell did I get big caramel flavour/aroma from a JW trad ale/amarillo smash
Did a 38L brew and fermented in two fermenters with same yeast, same temp.
Could an infection cause this or what.
I wouldn't mind the taste in a heavier style but I dont want it in my pale ales. My sense of smell is not good but I smelt this before I tasted it

Damn weird

Edit: Oh yeah, the first keg of this was fine, and this is the second keg/fermenter of the brew

 

[Tony]

DMS?

Usually describes as butterscotch.

Was it a new bag mate, or one you have used before without the flavour issue?

cheers

 

[Cocko]

Diacetyl?

More so butterscotch but if the first time could be mistaken for caramel...

Did your ferment temp get away from you and you cooled it down??

Just a thought.

 

[Screwtop]

DMS?

Usually describes as butterscotch.

Was it a new bag mate, or one you have used before without the flavour issue?

cheers

Diacetly for my money, not in the fermenter long I take it?

Screwy

 

[Bribie G]

DMS?

Usually describes as butterscotch.

Was it a new bag mate, or one you have used before without the flavour issue?

cheers

DMS is more rotten cabbage or sweetcorn. Diacetyl is butterscotch and as previous poster said can be mistaken for caramel. Get a Werthers butterscotch drop and suck it, and that's diacetyl because that's what is used in the confectionery industry to mimic butterscotch.

edit: some yeasts chuck diacetyl - I actually like a bit of butterscotch in some darker UK ales and deliberately use Wyeast 1768 and rush it through :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: What yeast and for how long?

 

[jayse]

Diacetyl can come across in many ways, the main way I don't like much at all, this caramel thing in this beer when its diacetyl I think more toffee.

Sometime its ok but I found it really stuffs with beer, even a little bit and it affects every part of the beer, takes to edges off, adjusts the balance....anyway I have never found a situation where diacetyl popped up I liked.

 

[manticle]

anyway I have never found a situation where diacetyl popped up I liked

What about darker, brown type ales where toffee and caramel are parts of the flavour profile?

 

[pbrosnan]

What were the hops and yeast like? I've found that extreme's of either can throw all kinds of flavour perceptions. I had a non brewer, but beer drinker, try some of a heavily US hopped ale that used a Belgian yeast that had some caraaroma in it. He thought he could taste chocolate.

 

[MHB]

Is your fire too close to your kettle, or have you made any changes that could affect how hot the bottom of the boiler is getting?
MHB

 

[jayse]

What about darker, brown type ales where toffee and caramel are parts of the flavour profile?

It can work in those to some peoples tastes maybe but to me when those flavours are from diacetyl the diacetyl itself affect the beer in to many other ways, I think it would be way to hard to relly on it to do what you want, but I am sure there are breweries nailing there level and flavour with it everytime.

What were the hops and yeast like? I've found that extreme's of either can throw all kinds of flavour perceptions. I had a non brewer, but beer drinker, try some of a heavily US hopped ale that used a Belgian yeast that had some caraaroma in it. He thought he could taste chocolate.

I have found roasted notes in cararoma, its a big malt with many flavours.

 

[pbrosnan]

I have found roasted notes in cararoma, its a big malt with many flavours.

That's true. But I haven't been able to detect any chocolate which is what I gather you're indicating the roasted notes might evince. In fact there is a hint of caramel or toffee but the US hops, in large enough proportions can start to do some unusual things flavour wise so I'm not convinced it can all be attributed to the caraaoma. My beer probably too unpredictable anyway given the hops and the yeast. I do think things like caramelisation in the boil are close to impossible though given the volume of wort. And I gather that the OP fermented 2 brews from the same boil?

 

[jayse]

That's true. But I haven't been able to detect any chocolate which is what I gather you're indicating the roasted notes might evince. In fact there is a hint of caramel or toffee but the US hops, in large enough proportions can start to do some unusual things flavour wise so I'm not convinced it can all be attributed to the caraaoma. My beer probably too unpredictable anyway given the hops and the yeast. I do think things like caramelisation in the boil are close to impossible though given the volume of wort. And I gather that the OP fermented 2 brews from the same boil?

Yeah I would say I have never got chocolate from cararoma either just in beers like that some people might use the incorrect discriptor for some flavours, whereas some might think dessert flavours in beer and not have imediate discriptors for which desert and someone might think straight away I know that and its this, not that.
Such as confusing flavours in the beer your talking about, I think confusing beers make the best drinking beers sometimes. :chug:

 

[Mantis]

It was one half of a 38L brew. The other keg from fermenter 1 was fine and the keg from fermenter 2 has the problem.
Both fermented with US-05 but I think one poster hit it with me forgetting to put the fermenters in the temp controlled fridge the next day, and they sat on the freezer for one hot day, before I got them in the freezer and cooled down.

Must have gotten lucky with the first one

And yes it is a worthers lolly taste

 

[Fourstar]

It was one half of a 38L brew. The other keg from fermenter 1 was fine and the keg from fermenter 2 has the problem.
Both fermented with US-05 but I think one poster hit it with me forgetting to put the fermenters in the temp controlled fridge the next day, and they sat on the freezer for one hot day, before I got them in the freezer and cooled down.
Must have gotten lucky with the first one
And yes it is a worthers lolly taste

Hey Mantis,

I'd say its diacetyl being pushed out if secondary fermenation has kicked off if you where not actually at termanl gravity.

Also, if the pH of your wort is high during your boil you increase the maillard reactions and may have an increase in melanoiden flavours/profile . Also Wort Carmelisation may have occured as MHB has observed as a possibility but but obviously this is not the case as keg 1 is completely fine.

I'd suggest bringing keg two out of the fridge for 48 hours to see if the diacetyl can be scrubbed out by the yeast. If its still there, it may be permanent or the signs of an early infection in keg 2.

 

[Mantis]

Thanks 4*. I will give that a go and put the keg in the fermenting fridge for a couple of days.
What temp should I set it at, 22C ??

 

[Fourstar]

Thanks 4*. I will give that a go and put the keg in the fermenting fridge for a couple of days.
What temp should I set it at, 22C ??

Yeah 22 should be fine. or just leave at ambient if its not scorching hot in your neck of the woods.

 

[hefevice]

It was one half of a 38L brew. The other keg from fermenter 1 was fine and the keg from fermenter 2 has the problem.
Both fermented with US-05 but I think one poster hit it with me forgetting to put the fermenters in the temp controlled fridge the next day, and they sat on the freezer for one hot day, before I got them in the freezer and cooled down.

Must have gotten lucky with the first one

And yes it is a worthers lolly taste

Cleaned your beer line and tap lately? Had a similar problem with a Galaxy SMASH I brewed recently, especially if the beer remained in the line for a day or so. Thankfully the infection was limited to the line and hadn't worked back down into the keg, so a good line cleaning and sanitisation cleared it up.

 

[Mantis]

Bought the keg inside the house as its hitting near 40C here today

I clean my lines every time I clean out a keg for use. When cleaned I put a kettle of boiling water and some phosphoric acid in the keg and pull it through the lines.

 

[Mantis]

Thanks 4* :beer:
Bringing it up to ambient temp in the house for a couple of days and nearly all the worthers taste has gone