Can Sanitizer Become "dirty" And Useless?

[Yeastie Beastie]

We have a local bloke here and he collects the long neck bottles from surrounding country pubs and takes them to the recyclers.
I buy 48 for $3 when I need a few extra bottles but they come in mouldy on the inside bottom, as you could imagine the publican probably won't be rinsing bottles when they are emptied lol.
I got another 48 off him over the weekend and they arrived a pretty dirty and I cleaned them all today.
My usual process is that once I empty my own bottles I give them a good rinse and when it comes time to refill them I just need to sanitize them, rinse them then fill them.

I have never had problems with failed bottles so I figured all is working, which brings me to this.
TODAY: I am using a sink load of sanitizer, filling the empties, scrubbing them with the bottle brush, emptying, refilling sink with hot water, let it cool, re rinse bottles, done. The original sanitizer is still clear just with lumps of mould in the bottom of the sink.
This has never failed me in the past but:

Can sanitizer become "too dirty" and become useless?

 

[jonocarroll]

There's a difference between a cleaner and a sanitiser... a sanitiser won't clean, and a cleaner won't sanitise.

I think you need to be cleaning the bottles first :blink:

 

[clean brewer]

We have a local bloke here and he collects the long neck bottles from surrounding country pubs and takes them to the recyclers.
I buy 48 for $3 when I need a few extra bottles but they come in mouldy on the inside bottom, as you could imagine the publican probably won't be rinsing bottles when they are emptied lol.
I got another 48 off him over the weekend and they arrived a pretty dirty and I cleaned them all today.
My usual process is that once I empty my own bottles I give them a good rinse and when it comes time to refill them I just need to sanitize them, rinse them then fill them.

I have never had problems with failed bottles so I figured all is working, which brings me to this.
TODAY: I am using a sink load of sanitizer, filling the empties, scrubbing them with the bottle brush, emptying, refilling sink with hot water, let it cool, re rinse bottles, done. The original sanitizer is still clear just with lumps of mould in the bottom of the sink.
This has never failed me in the past but:

Can sanitizer become "too dirty" and become useless?

Yes, is it worth the risk... I use Starsan and it comes out at $0.06 a litre, small price...

CB

 

[Yeastie Beastie]

There's a difference between a cleaner and a sanitiser... a sanitiser won't clean, and a cleaner won't sanitise.

I think you need to be cleaning the bottles first :blink:

Yes good point, the bottles have come out alright using this method and I have had no troubles yet, touch wood.
Ill change my method I think.

 

[peas_and_corn]

If you have dirty bottles, clean them with napisan first, then sanitise. It was my method when I bottled, worked every time.

 

[Wortgames]

I agree with QuantumBrewer, cleaning and sanitising are two different processes.

Having said that, I had good results with a lazy bleach method - a large bin in the back yard full of bleach solution. Bung the empties in there, then just tip them out and rinse on bottling day. The bleach cleans and sanitises (and removes labels etc).

It's cheap, and there's very little physical exertion B)

 

[flattop]

Wort that is a brilliant suggestion, i was using a plastic crate but i can only get about 8 bottles in it...

 

[Yeastie Beastie]

I agree with QuantumBrewer, cleaning and sanitising are two different processes.

Having said that, I had good results with a lazy bleach method - a large bin in the back yard full of bleach solution. Bung the empties in there, then just tip them out and rinse on bottling day. The bleach cleans and sanitises (and removes labels etc).

It's cheap, and there's very little physical exertion B)

Chuck 'em in the bath and that's another job out of the way too....
Just kidding, probably not the most sanitary method.

 

[Wolfy]

As others have said cleaning is different to sanitising.

Clean them first:
Soak them in sodium percarbonate (Nappisan) for 24 hours or so, and this should remove most of the gunk.
Clean them out with a bottle brush, they should clean easily and rinse with water.

Then sanitise just before you use them:
Rinse with sanitizing solution (according to the directions) and you're good to go.

 

[Ross]

I agree with QuantumBrewer, cleaning and sanitising are two different processes.

Having said that, I had good results with a lazy bleach method - a large bin in the back yard full of bleach solution. Bung the empties in there, then just tip them out and rinse on bottling day. The bleach cleans and sanitises (and removes labels etc).

It's cheap, and there's very little physical exertion B)

:icon_offtopic:

Welcome back Wortgames....its been a long time between drinks :icon_chickcheers:

cheers Ross

 

[bum]

I agree with QuantumBrewer, cleaning and sanitising are two different processes.

Having said that, I had good results with a lazy bleach method - a large bin in the back yard full of bleach solution. Bung the empties in there, then just tip them out and rinse on bottling day. The bleach cleans and sanitises (and removes labels etc).

It's cheap, and there's very little physical exertion B)

I've been using the same method to soak the labels of stubbies for a while now and seeing what has grown on the top of the bucket I wouldn't be too keen to recommend this method unless you're talking no more than a couple days.

 

[katzke]

Can sanitizer become "too dirty" and become useless?

Not sure anyone answered the question.

Yes.

There are ways to test the effectiveness but the easy way is, if in doubt through it out.

 

[jonocarroll]

Not sure anyone answered the question.

I thought we did - if your bottles are dirty, then your sanitiser is already too dirty, and won't work properly. As the OP stated, he's getting away with it, but really, he's just getting lucky.

 

[Bribie G]

A problem with bleach is that it is quite 'sticky' and you need to use vast amounts of water to rinse the bottles out and then they aren't guaranteed sanitised. I've recently gone onto Starsan no-rinse, with Napisan as the initial cleaner for cleaning out cubes etc. I've recently gone away from 2L bottles and built up a good collection of 750mls and Bavaria 660mls tallies. With regular use, Starsan has knocked a good twenty minutes off my bottling sessions.

Starsan = the sanitiser that God uses.

 

[Fourstar]

There's a difference between a cleaner and a sanitiser... a sanitiser won't clean, and a cleaner won't sanitise.
I think you need to be cleaning the bottles first :blink:

What you have done is tried to clean with sanitiser... not correct, i use oxygen based cleansers like napisan to clean all my brew gear.

If you have dirty bottles, clean them with napisan first, then sanitise. It was my method when I bottled, worked every time.

Follow P&C method and you cannot go wrong. Clean w/napisan, rinse then no rinse sanitise your bottles. then either air dry or bottle immediatly whilst still wet.

 

[peas_and_corn]

A problem with bleach is that it is quite 'sticky' and you need to use vast amounts of water to rinse the bottles out and then they aren't guaranteed sanitised. I've recently gone onto Starsan no-rinse, with Napisan as the initial cleaner for cleaning out cubes etc. I've recently gone away from 2L bottles and built up a good collection of 750mls and Bavaria 660mls tallies. With regular use, Starsan has knocked a good twenty minutes off my bottling sessions.

Starsan = the sanitiser that God uses.

I thought the correct name was "Pope Jamil"

 

[muckanic]

Many cleaners are alkali-based. For example, bleach contains caustic soda, and oxy-bleach contains soda ash.

Many sanitisers are based upon oxidants. For example, bleach contains hypochlorite, and oxy-bleach contains percarbonate.

Bleach is marketed as not just a bathroom cleaner, but also a mould killer. Oxy-bleach is marketed as not just a nappy cleaner, but also a disinfectant. Think about it. I maintain that both bleach and oxy-bleach are cleaner-sanitisers. Their sanitisation action, however, is less than it ideally could be because of the alkaline conditions. That may be compensated by longer contact times. There is also a requirement to rinse, although that shouldn't concern anyone with a normal domestic water supply (except possibly when yeast farming). Sanitising the rinse water from the previous application of the cleaner-sanitiser seems to me to be a convoluted and wasteful process.

Oxidants certainly can go off with time. Liquid bleach in particular loses significant potency in the bottle. Dry powdered hypochlorite and percarbonate in closed containers are a different matter. A hot sinkful of anonymous "stuff" is probably not a great re-use bet.

 

[Wortgames]

:icon_offtopic:

Welcome back Wortgames....its been a long time between drinks :icon_chickcheers:

cheers Ross

Certainly has Ross, far too long!

Good to see Craftbrewer still going strong - might have to treat myself to some new bling soon. I can see a millmaster and some decent silicon hose on the horizon...

Any plans to get back down to Melb in the near future? I feel like I need to redeem myself after burning so brightly and briefly last time h34r:

ross > < me

 

[Yeastie Beastie]

I thought we did - if your bottles are dirty, then your sanitiser is already too dirty, and won't work properly. As the OP stated, he's getting away with it, but really, he's just getting lucky.

Thanks to all for the replies, I definitely have a far better insight to a better method.

Quantum, luck has faded, I opened a bottle from a fresh batch tonight and it is shot. Very acidic and little carbonation, been in bottle for 4 weeks in right conditions, not very nice at all, Maybe my luck ended.

I have definitely taken all of this aboard and tomorrows bottling methods will drastically change.

Cheers to all.

Kev.

 

[drtomc]

If you have dirty bottles, clean them with napisan first, then sanitise. It was my method when I bottled, worked every time.

+1