Braumeister NEXTGEN Build

[stux]

I think what I am really struggling with may be a limitation of a 1V recirculating system? I want to do a big beer - Delirium Tremens is one of my faves - so I would like to be able to make it in this. It takes a 5.5kg grain bill, then later (no problem) a kilo or so of candi syrup.

I've attached my volume calculations to get some feedback on as I'm not sure what is / isn't reasonable and possible to be aiming for

Haven't looked at your sheet yet (iPhone)

But when making big beers it is common to boil longer, produce less and top up with extract and/or sugar (the Belgians do it)

Thing to do is work out how much beer you want with the low end gravity and how much with a high end (but not extreme) and design to cover that.

My low/high is pretty much 1.035 to 1.060, where I always want 60L in fermenter. Then I'd run the numbers and work out how many L I could do at 1.080 etc and see if I was happy with that as well

You see, who really wants 60L of the same belgian quadruppel

 

[bigbanko]

Also drilled hole in pot for one of the stainless skin fittings and fitted brown pump and 3-piece ball valve and then cam-lock fittings.
Progress is finally being made....

The little brown pump will be the weak link. Ask me how I know?

Mine didn't last the first brew session.

 

[angus_grant]

yeh, the brown pump is for prototyping my design. I don't particularly expect it to last that long. I do have two of them, but will be upgrading to a proper pump at some point.

Will be using it to get the water moving to stabilise the temp to test my PID element control code.

 

[lael]

ok - so brown pump sounds like it is capable, but likely to fail?

this one: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/MP..._672124722.html looks like the other one people are going for. Any comments on reliability / ability to handle hot wort over time? PeteQ did I see a post elsewhere on the forums that you have one?

 

[Edak]

ok - so brown pump sounds like it is capable, but likely to fail?

this one: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/MP..._672124722.html looks like the other one people are going for. Any comments on reliability / ability to handle hot wort over time? PeteQ did I see a post elsewhere on the forums that you have one?

Hi lael,
that pump looks similar to many of ours but is inferior. The pump is use is from keg king, it has a metal body painted green and they are about $150. The biggest problem with the kk pump is that it has barb fittings so it's not directly plumbed.

 

[QldKev]

ok - so brown pump sounds like it is capable, but likely to fail?

this one: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/MP..._672124722.html looks like the other one people are going for. Any comments on reliability / ability to handle hot wort over time? PeteQ did I see a post elsewhere on the forums that you have one?

Hi lael,
that pump looks similar to many of ours but is inferior. The pump is use is from keg king, it has a metal body painted green and they are about $150. The biggest problem with the kk pump is that it has barb fittings so it's not directly plumbed.

Why is it inferior? The Kaixin pump is also a metal body.

QldKev

 

[Edak]

Why is it inferior? The Kaixin pump is also a metal body.

QldKev

My apologies, I thought I had read that they had a plastic body on a bulk buy post... Are they also food grade?

 

[Malted]

I think what I am really struggling with may be a limitation of a 1V recirculating system? I want to do a big beer - Delirium Tremens is one of my faves - so I would like to be able to make it in this. It takes a 5.5kg grain bill, then later (no problem) a kilo or so of candi syrup.

I've attached my volume calculations to get some feedback on as I'm not sure what is / isn't reasonable and possible to be aiming for

It is obvious that you are doing extensive research and I applaud that. I am somewhat cautious however since you have not brewed AG before. A lot of folks start with BIAB and get their heads around the brewing processes and some (but not all) then move onto a 3V system. I do not know many folks who keep the same 3V system that they start with, generally they tinker with it and improve it over time as they become more accustomed to the brewing process and what equipment suits them. Very few people start out by building an awesome brew rig straight up. All I am saying is that a good understanding of the AG brewing process can help you build a machine to suit your needs.

So I think you should ask yourself, if you have not brewed AG before, why do you want a 1V system? The ability to hit target temps bang on without fuss, good repeatability of brews etc might well be issues that you have not yet diced with and could well be issues that should not worry you at this stage? If it is about you living in an apartment and thus have limited space, BIAB is a much easier AG starting point. I am not trying to talk you out of it, it seems to me that you are capable of pulling it off. Edit: I should add, because you are asking good questions.

Yes you are correct, 1 V systems do have gravity limitations - there is only so much grain you can put in them and a minimum volume of liquid to add. High grist to liquor ratios (for high gravity worts) are easier with a 3V system because they don't have a wort recirculation pump. You can however do high gravity brewing in a 1V system but most often it relies on lowering the final volume by boiling for a long time to concentrate the wort or by the use of adjuncts.

So 5kg of grain will be ok instead of 5.5kg, if you are willing to drop your output volume.

This is also where a good knowledge of brewing helps. High gravity brewing will drop your efficiency, this is not unique to 1V systems. Ordinarily I would get 80-85% efficiency for a 'normal' batch in my Braumeister (i.e. mid range gravity of say 1.035-1.060) any higher than that and I have to start lowering my efficiency values for the recipe formulation. For instance I tried an AG (no adjuncts) wort aiming for 1.100 and set my efficiency to 65%, in reality I think it was more likely 45-50% (it was a horror brew day and all went to shit). Efficiency values are important because they help you calculate how much grain you are going to need to get the required gravity for a particular volume of wort. Without knowing any details of your intended brew, with a lower efficiency due to high gravity brewing, you might well require 6 or 6.5kg of grain to achieve the gravity you are aiming for at that volume. Therefore with only 5kg of available grain space, you would need to accept a much lower output volume to achieve the desired gravity. This is most easily achieved through a very long boil. However, very long boils can lead to scorching the wort, particularly if you don't have a low watt density element. Burnt flavours through the wort are not very nice.

If you do go down the 1V system path, leave the Delirium tremens for much later on, do some normal brewing first. Get your head around AG brewing, get your head around brewing on the 1V system and only then start pushing the boundaries. You'll have much less stress and greater success.

So a word on your spreadsheet. Let's say the large single worksheet for instance. It has a pot volume of 71.5L and a minimum water volume of 34.8L (if max grain bill is used). How much sparge water would you use? You know you still need to sparge a 1V system yeah? Braumeisters and the clones are not full volume machines like BIAB folks can be. Say you want a 30L bottling volume, you expect 10% evap, 4% cooling loss, 3L loss to trub in the kettle and 3L loss to trub in the fermenter. In this case you would want 40.2L in the BIAB kettle to allow for these losses and you would add more grain (with a lower efficiency value) to allow for not sparging (although a lot of BIAB brewers do sparge). In the sparging case of 30L output you'd need to sparge with 5-6L or more. BIAB is a bit more flexible (and perhaps easier) because you can just add more water or more grain as required; it is not that simple with a BrauClone.

The brauClone process is like this: you don't mash at full volume, you need to add water to reach full volume, if you add water it might as well be a sparge as you will gain sugars from it (otherwise you are leaving sugars behind and are dropping your total efficiency) and thus will either need more grain or lower your output volume, you can't just add more grain as space is limited.

It would not be unusual for me to sparge with 15-20L on a 50L batch to reach the desired volume and gravity for a upper-mid gravity brew. In this case it would be desirable for me to have a hot water urn to hold sufficient hot liquor for sparging - it then becomes a 2V system...

Edit #2: I should add I am not a Braumeister, BrauClone or brewing expert - I am just a havachat and write more than some folks.

 

[Malted]

Malted - thanks for your excellent answer! It is very helpful! I'm trying to figure out if it is worth the hassle of building a larger machine. It seems hard to find large pots that are tall and narrow for cheap for thermal efficiency (and for 2 same diameter but different capacity malt pipes), and the extra element /power circuit required seems to add up costs and complexity. Any comment on how often you use your 20L malt pipe vs doing a 50L batch?

Yes bigger pots are dearer and associated costs are more for a bigger system; if it doesn't work out you have wasted a lot more money. Most folks who are building bigger systems are seasoned brewers. If you want to start you AG brewing on a 1V system, my advice is not to go too big too soon. Build a single batch system and see how that works for you, upgrade to a larger volume later. The beauty of this is that you will be able to reuse the controller and most of the parts from the small single system.

I use my 20L malt pipe (which is more like a 30L batch actually) more often that I use the full 50L malt pipe. Why? Because it is so easy to brew, I can brew more often* for a greater variety of beers. It takes me some time to drink a 19L keg of beer.

*If I get the time (what follows is somewhat contradictory to the above statement).
I generally only have one keg in my kegerator (much to my disgust) and sometimes have periods in which it has run out and the replacement is not ready or not yet brewed. I should no chill more often and start collecting some so that I can have a few differing worts on hand to brew out when I have the opportunity. I have not settled on a 'house ale' or such, if I had then I could brew a double batch of it and when I start on or am someway through the second keg, I could brew again and not run out of beer. I can only fit two kegs in my kegerator too which is a problem. Enough to say, it is a balancing act for me between brewing enough to keep me in beer vs trying different recipes more often. Personally I like the variety so will probably need to brew more often, start stock pilling some no chilled worts and get a bigger kegerator.

 

[lael]

My apologies, I thought I had read that they had a plastic body on a bulk buy post... Are they also food grade?

supposedly - up to 120C continuous working temp. I've asked what they are made out of - from other posts is seems that 'real' high temp pumps are polysulfone, whereas medium temp (80deg working) are some other material I can't remember off the top of my head - longer and starts with poly

I think PeteQ has one - I've asked him about it and will see what he says. the pump looks awfully similar to the one strapped to the bottom of your system... i wouldn't be surprised if they are the same, but appearances can be deceiving.

 

[lael]

It is obvious that you are doing extensive research and I applaud that.

thx! trying to do it once and do it right I suppose. I've been looking at a lot of rigs - I think the 1V system suits for a few reasons - automation - reduces time, increases incentive to brew, allows for repeatability and consistency that isn't possible in a manual system. Cleaning and sanitising is simplified, the space required to store equipment is reduced, and from what I've read a lot of people build a 3v system, and then want to reduce down to the braumeister. I'm pretty much sold on the benefits and that I will want it later - so don't really want to buy and build a system that I will just get rid of later. I've done the sums as extensively as I can on a system build complete with sources and it looks like around $1k for a 20L system and around $1300 for a 50L (without the what is seeming necessary appx $300 20A power outlet/s - my sparky says 20A is pretty much same cost as 15A). It's certainly not cheap, but does look like it might be less expensive long term

Yes you are correct, 1 V systems do have gravity limitations - there is only so much grain you can put in them and a minimum volume of liquid to add. High grist to liquor ratios (for high gravity worts) are easier with a 3V system because they don't have a wort recirculation pump. You can however do high gravity brewing in a 1V system but most often it relies on lowering the final volume by boiling for a long time to concentrate the wort or by the use of adjuncts.

So 5kg of grain will be ok instead of 5.5kg, if you are willing to drop your output volume.

This is also where a good knowledge of brewing helps. High gravity brewing will drop your efficiency, this is not unique to 1V systems. Ordinarily I would get 80-85% efficiency for a 'normal' batch in my Braumeister (i.e. mid range gravity of say 1.035-1.060) any higher than that and I have to start lowering my efficiency values for the recipe formulation. For instance I tried an AG (no adjuncts) wort aiming for 1.100 and set my efficiency to 65%, in reality I think it was more likely 45-50% (it was a horror brew day and all went to shit). Efficiency values are important because they help you calculate how much grain you are going to need to get the required gravity for a particular volume of wort. Without knowing any details of your intended brew, with a lower efficiency due to high gravity brewing, you might well require 6 or 6.5kg of grain to achieve the gravity you are aiming for at that volume. Therefore with only 5kg of available grain space, you would need to accept a much lower output volume to achieve the desired gravity. This is most easily achieved through a very long boil. However, very long boils can lead to scorching the wort, particularly if you don't have a low watt density element. Burnt flavours through the wort are not very nice.

If you do go down the 1V system path, leave the Delirium tremens for much later on, do some normal brewing first. Get your head around AG brewing, get your head around brewing on the 1V system and only then start pushing the boundaries. You'll have much less stress and greater success.

ok - this is making more sense - thanks! your last post where you mentioned that it would be possible to do a higher volume with lower output was an epiphany for me. I hadn't thought beyond 'normal' batch sizes until then. Really the only restriction then is the minimum water levels required vs amount of grain you can fit in the malt pipe. I've done some partial mashes, but I guess there is a lot more to learn about all grain - I'll read through those sections of the books I've got.

So a word on your spreadsheet. Let's say the large single worksheet for instance. It has a pot volume of 71.5L and a minimum water volume of 34.8L (if max grain bill is used). How much sparge water would you use? You know you still need to sparge a 1V system yeah? Braumeisters and the clones are not full volume machines like BIAB folks can be.

yeah - I understand you need to sparge and if you don't sparge you reduce efficiency. I didn't realise BIAB could be 'full volume' does this mean running the full pre-boil volume in mashing?

Say you want a 30L bottling volume, you expect 10% evap, 4% cooling loss, 3L loss to trub in the kettle and 3L loss to trub in the fermenter. In this case you would want 40.2L in the BIAB kettle to allow for these losses and you would add more grain (with a lower efficiency value) to allow for not sparging (although a lot of BIAB brewers do sparge). In the sparging case of 30L output you'd need to sparge with 5-6L or more. BIAB is a bit more flexible (and perhaps easier) because you can just add more water or more grain as required; it is not that simple with a BrauClone.

The brauClone process is like this: you don't mash at full volume, you need to add water to reach full volume, if you add water it might as well be a sparge as you will gain sugars from it (otherwise you are leaving sugars behind and are dropping your total efficiency) and thus will either need more grain or lower your output volume, you can't just add more grain as space is limited.

It would not be unusual for me to sparge with 15-20L on a 50L batch to reach the desired volume and gravity for a upper-mid gravity brew. In this case it would be desirable for me to have a hot water urn to hold sufficient hot liquor for sparging - it then becomes a 2V system...

Edit #2: I should add I am not a Braumeister, BrauClone or brewing expert - I am just a havachat and write more than some folks.

How do you determine how much sparge water to add into a batch? as far as I can tell an urn or similar (i guess a kettle would work for smaller batches) seems necessary/desirable (rinsing, cleaning, sparging etc?) unless you are no-sparging?

I guess with the large single - the question I was trying to figure out - would it actually be possible to run a smaller batch through it - eg: 'standard' 5gall / 19L?

eg: DR Smurto's golden ale is 4.5kg grain bill single batch - but... this means running a larger amount of fluid to compensate for the lower fluid displacement by more grain, pushing the total water volume to 37 litres - which seems way too large for a single batch? (allowing 6L loss to trub = 31L, *.85 evap + cooling loss = 26L) [is that how I calculate it? ]. So assuming more boil = bad, then this pot sizing doesn't work...?

buut... if I was to buy another same size pot and cut it down to 25cm high, the numbers look better - min water volume of 26L for max grain bill of 5.2kg. That might work.

Either way - I'm guessing bringing the 50L required for a 40L batch to the boil isn't going to happen with a 2400w element. Hmmm - go ghetto and bung in an immersion heater? lol

 

[stux]

eg: DR Smurto's golden ale is 4.5kg grain bill single batch - but... this means running a larger amount of fluid to compensate for the lower fluid displacement by more grain, pushing the total water volume to 37 litres - which seems way too large for a single batch? (allowing 6L loss to trub = 31L, *.85 evap + cooling loss = 26L) [is that how I calculate it? ]. So assuming more boil = bad, then this pot sizing doesn't work...?

Are you including the loss to grain absorption?

Not sure on the exact numbers in this scenario

 

[lael]

Are you including the loss to grain absorption?

Not sure on the exact numbers in this scenario

hi stux,

yeah, the numbers are based on the spreadsheet i posted a few posts back, and then the loss figures (boil, cooling, trub) are based on what malted suggested above.

 

[Edak]

thx! trying to do it once and do it right I suppose. I've been looking at a lot of rigs - I think the 1V system suits for a few reasons - automation - reduces time, increases incentive to brew, allows for repeatability and consistency that isn't possible in a manual system. Cleaning and sanitising is simplified, the space required to store equipment is reduced, and from what I've read a lot of people build a 3v system, and then want to reduce down to the braumeister. I'm pretty much sold on the benefits and that I will want it later - so don't really want to buy and build a system that I will just get rid of later. I've done the sums as extensively as I can on a system build complete with sources and it looks like around $1k for a 20L system and around $1300 for a 50L (without the what is seeming necessary appx $300 20A power outlet/s - my sparky says 20A is pretty much same cost as 15A). It's certainly not cheap, but does look like it might be less expensive long term



ok - this is making more sense - thanks! your last post where you mentioned that it would be possible to do a higher volume with lower output was an epiphany for me. I hadn't thought beyond 'normal' batch sizes until then. Really the only restriction then is the minimum water levels required vs amount of grain you can fit in the malt pipe. I've done some partial mashes, but I guess there is a lot more to learn about all grain - I'll read through those sections of the books I've got.



yeah - I understand you need to sparge and if you don't sparge you reduce efficiency. I didn't realise BIAB could be 'full volume' does this mean running the full pre-boil volume in mashing?



How do you determine how much sparge water to add into a batch? as far as I can tell an urn or similar (i guess a kettle would work for smaller batches) seems necessary/desirable (rinsing, cleaning, sparging etc?) unless you are no-sparging?

I guess with the large single - the question I was trying to figure out - would it actually be possible to run a smaller batch through it - eg: 'standard' 5gall / 19L?

eg: DR Smurto's golden ale is 4.5kg grain bill single batch - but... this means running a larger amount of fluid to compensate for the lower fluid displacement by more grain, pushing the total water volume to 37 litres - which seems way too large for a single batch? (allowing 6L loss to trub = 31L, *.85 evap + cooling loss = 26L) [is that how I calculate it? ]. So assuming more boil = bad, then this pot sizing doesn't work...?

buut... if I was to buy another same size pot and cut it down to 25cm high, the numbers look better - min water volume of 26L for max grain bill of 5.2kg. That might work.

Either way - I'm guessing bringing the 50L required for a 40L batch to the boil isn't going to happen with a 2400w element. Hmmm - go ghetto and bung in an immersion heater? lol

your calculation looks dodgy somehow. Using my system for example, I need a minimum of 23 litres when the maltpipe is installed including the grain volume. I start my system every time with 23 litres, add the grain, which adds another 3L volume for a total of approx 26 litres.

You need to calculate backwards for volumes for sparge water though, so if you want 21L into fermenter, add the trub loss (3L), expand the water (divide by 0.96), add evaporation (divide by 0.85 for a 10% system at 90 min boil),you should be left with a number like 29.5L, this is the pre boil volume. Now, as mentioned earlier I start with a volume of 26, minus the grain absorption (about 1L/kg) and sparge with the difference to get to the pre boil volume.

BeerSmith makes this easy as it does it all for you, but you see that you never need more than 30L in there when doing basic recipes like DSGA, which was my first recipe to brew on my BM. .

 

[stux]

your calculation looks dodgy somehow. Using my system for example, I need a minimum of 23 litres when the maltpipe is installed including the grain volume. I start my system every time with 23 litres, add the grain, which adds another 3L volume for a total of approx 26 litres.

You need to calculate backwards for volumes for sparge water though, so if you want 21L into fermenter, add the trub loss (3L), expand the water (divide by 0.96), add evaporation (divide by 0.85 for a 10% system at 90 min boil),you should be left with a number like 29.5L, this is the pre boil volume. Now, as mentioned earlier I start with a volume of 26, minus the grain absorption (about 1L/kg) and sparge with the difference to get to the pre boil volume.

BeerSmith makes this easy as it does it all for you, but you see that you never need more than 30L in there when doing basic recipes like DSGA, which was my first recipe to brew on my BM. .

So, basically, you can work out a pre-boil volume you need. And then you can work out if your pre-boil volume you'll actually get will exceed that. If it will then your BM's volumes aren't practical.

As I mentioned before, you can work out the volumes/sparges etc for a low-range, mid-range, high-range beer.

You BM's dimensions need to be such that you'll be able to accomplish what you want, which means ending up with a pre-boil volume <= the pre-boil volume that you need.

As the gravity of your wort increases, the loss to absorption becomes more significant (higher gravity losses), and most likely a high percentage of the total (more grain less wort), which is why efficiency drops as you go up. Sparging helps to recover this loss, but dilutes the wort!

 

[Malted]

Really the only restriction then is the minimum water levels required vs amount of grain you can fit in the malt pipe. I've done some partial mashes, but I guess there is a lot more to learn about all grain - I'll read through those sections of the books I've got.

I didn't realise BIAB could be 'full volume' does this mean running the full pre-boil volume in mashing?

How do you determine how much sparge water to add into a batch? as far as I can tell an urn or similar (i guess a kettle would work for smaller batches) seems necessary/desirable (rinsing, cleaning, sparging etc?) unless you are no-sparging?

buut... if I was to buy another same size pot and cut it down to 25cm high, the numbers look better - min water volume of 26L for max grain bill of 5.2kg. That might work.

Either way - I'm guessing bringing the 50L required for a 40L batch to the boil isn't going to happen with a 2400w element. Hmmm - go ghetto and bung in an immersion heater? lol

You have a limited gravity and volume range, outside of these are not as easy as with other systems. The system is optimal when used inside these ranges but you need to do things differently outside of the ranges. There are other restrictions but for most brews minimum water level and maximum amount of grain are the main limiting factors (but that is specifically thinking in regards to big beers - aka high gravity beers). Other factors migh include things like: say you do an 80% wheat beer or use >20% rye, these mashes can get stuck (i.e. they gloop up that much that the pump is unable to push the wort through them, then you get burnt stuff on the elements and nasty results like that). In this case you may need to add rice hulls to bulk the grist out (it is like fibre in your diet, generally it has little nutritional value but more of it makes your poo runnier :lol: ). Extra rice hulls can mean less space for grain which can mean lower potential gravity of the wort.

Yes some BIAB chaps put the full volume into their pot and dunk the grain into it and do not sparge. That is, they start with enough water to account for the total losses through the whole process to achive their desired volume into the fermenter. Since they don't sparge and thus reduce efficiency, they have to add some extra grain to achieve their desired gravity of the desired volume. It takes a little bit to calculate it (but no more than planning any other style of brewing) but has the advantage of being a simple and easy brewday.

How much sparge water. You can calculate your theoretical or expected losses but the best way is to start from there and measure everything to fine tune those predictions for subsequent brewing. Measure how much water you start with (always), measure how much is still in there when you pull the grain out, measure how much you sparge with, measure how much is in the kettle pre-boil, measure how much is in the kettle post boil, measure how much trub is left in the kettle when you have drained off to your cube or fermenter (easy to do but a lot of foilks don't do this), measure how much is in the fermenter, measure how much yeast and gunk is left in the fermenter after you rack to a keg or bottle it. Measure measure measure to determine your expected values for future, then expect them to vary slightly. Boil off/evaporation rates can vary, grain absoption rates can vary, more flour in the grist will probably mean more kettle trub (and thus greater volume losses), a crap load of hops will soak up some of the wort and lead to greater losses, different strains of yeast can mean less or more finished beer, lots of dry hops in the fermenter will soak up some beer; ergo the volume of finished beer can vary from batch to batch. An easy safe gaurd on the hot side is to do an extra sparge of the malt pipe over a bucket and hold that liquid to near the end of the boil and add it if neccessary to reach the desired post boil volume.

Buy another pot and cut it down - by all means! That's the difference between the 'short' malt pipe and the regular malt pipe in the 50L Braumeister. Diameter and design is exactly the same, only the height varies.

Given sufficient insulation and a lid and you are able to reduce energy loss, I'd suggest that perhaps 2400w might bring 40L to the boil (but I suspect not) but would be painfully slow if it did. However, there are a few reasons why you would not want a full lid on during the boil. Yep plenty of folks throw an over the side immersion element into the fray. Bare in mind a lot of the cheap ones burn out and are dangerous. Get a good one if you do that.


Are you starting to understand why such a project is easier for seasoned AG brewers to get their heads around it? Go to someones brewday, watch them brew an all grain beer. Seeing is learning. Keep asking questions, we might just get you through it. :super:

yeah, the numbers are based on the spreadsheet i posted a few posts back, and then the loss figures (boil, cooling, trub) are based on what malted suggested above.

Malted was focussed on the spreadsheet and did not mention loss to grain absorbtion (even though it was in his head with regards to how much he needs to sparge). He should have mentioned it. The other posters after his explained it.

To go over it again: grain goes in water, grain comes out of water, grain keeps some of the water, you now have less water in the pot. Even if you squeeze the grain, it will still keep some water. Some folks think it is ok to squeeze the grain, some think it is not ok. You might get more liquid out of it by squeezing but it might be cloudy and lead to more trub in the kettle and thus lower volume of wort produced, so you may not gain anything by squeezing, maybe you will have more sugars, maybe you won't.

 

[Crusty]

Yes some BIAB chaps put the full volume into their pot and dunk the grain into it and do not sparge. That is, they start with enough water to account for the total losses through the whole process to achive their desired volume into the fermenter. Since they don't sparge and thus reduce efficiency, they have to add some extra grain to achieve their desired gravity of the desired volume. It takes a little bit to calculate it (but no more than planning any other style of brewing) but has the advantage of being a simple and easy brewday.

Nice post Malted but really curious as to why you think not sparging effects efficiency.
As a former 3V brewer, double batch sparger, I get low to mid 80% efficiency with my Biab setup. This is on par with my old 3V setup.
A 90min sacc rest & a mashout will get you your efficiency. I add no extra grain for my recipes to compensate for lower efficiency, it just doesn't happen.
If you need to add extra grain to boost efficiency, you need to be concentrating on other factors in your process, certainly not because you Biab.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Nice post Malted but really curious as to why you think not sparging effects efficiency.
As a former 3V brewer, double batch sparger, I get low to mid 80% efficiency with my Biab setup. This is on par with my old 3V setup.
A 90min sacc rest & a mashout will get you your efficiency. I add no extra grain for my recipes to compensate for lower efficiency, it just doesn't happen.
If you need to add extra grain to boost efficiency, you need to be concentrating on other factors in your process, certainly not because you Biab.

I definitely get from about 65% efficiency to 84% just by sparging. It's kind of a fine line where the less efficiency you get the more malt you have to add BUT if you add more malt, efficiency drops in the ass as well.

 

[Crusty]

I definitely get from about 65% efficiency to 84% just by sparging. It's kind of a fine line where the less efficiency you get the more malt you have to add BUT if you add more malt, efficiency drops in the ass as well.

My very first Biab was a huge surprise for me. Due to reading several post about crap efficiency, turbid wort, no chill haze problems etc, I decided to aim for high efficiency, 70% as opposed to the general consensus of low to mid 60%, as you found out. As I wasn't going to sparge anymore, I closed my mill gap down to the thickness of my credit card & went with a recipe I have made several times on the 3V setup. The recipe was scaled back from 80% to 70% to compensate for Biab & as a result, more grain went into the mash to get my target OG. A 90min sacc rest & a mashout yielded a temp corrected wort ( 23lt ) of 1.050 instead of the 1.042 predicted. So my 70% efficiency became 83% into the fermenter. From this day on my recipes are based on 80% efficiency & it has proven to be bang on. My last DSGA clone came in at 80%, 23lt @1.048, exactly as predicted.

 

[lael]

your calculation looks dodgy somehow. Using my system for example, I need a minimum of 23 litres when the maltpipe is installed including the grain volume. I start my system every time with 23 litres, add the grain, which adds another 3L volume for a total of approx 26 litres.

Can I check here - I think I understand, but want to be sure - you aren't saying you add 3 Litres to compensate for the grain - you are saying that the grain volume increases the total fluid volume in the system by 3 Litres?

You need to calculate backwards for volumes for sparge water though, so if you want 21L into fermenter, add the trub loss (3L), expand the water (divide by 0.96), add evaporation (divide by 0.85 for a 10% system at 90 min boil),you should be left with a number like 29.5L, this is the pre boil volume. Now, as mentioned earlier I start with a volume of 26, minus the grain absorption (about 1L/kg) and sparge with the difference to get to the pre boil volume.

BeerSmith makes this easy as it does it all for you, but you see that you never need more than 30L in there when doing basic recipes like DSGA, which was my first recipe to brew on my BM. .

ok - so can i confirm - you put the pre-boil volume in as the strike water, you lose some to grain absorption, then you replace it during sparge to get back to pre-boil volume? Thanks for the numbers - very helpful.