Braumeister NEXTGEN Build

[Malted]

Malted if you need help loading the code, bonj or me can help, just let me know.Malted if you need help loading the code, bonj or me can help, just let me know.

About the filter plates, you don't need very small holes if you are using a filter mesh as well, my top plate has slots over 1cm wide, it holds the mesh in place very well.

cheers steve

Cheers mate, I have had some advice from others in this thread but I suspect there is something wrong between the keyboard and the office chair and didn't want to bother you about it. I will wait until I have it fully built and then may drag it to Vortex's house and see what he can do with it; I haven't asked him yet so we'll see how closely he is following this thread

My holes are about 2mm IIRC, I am hoping to do away with filter mesh if I can, we'll see how it works out for me, oneday...

I noted this earlier in the thread, but @ $100 a plate it might be worth following Malted's meathod

Only if you're as looney as me. :mellow:
.

 

[lael]

A very long time and two pilot drill bits. Deburring and polishing took almost as long. I didn't count the holes. Probably would not have attempted it if I didn't have a drill press.
I still have to do the other plate :unsure: but I know it will be worth it. I am using a Big W pot for the malt pipe; the buggers are slightly tapered so they can nest. This means that that the bottom plate has to have a slightly smaller diameter than the top plate.

The center tie-rod is a beauty. I am not using all thread rod, I got some SS rod and cut thread onto the ends of it. Likewise I got a 10mm section of 50mm round bar and cut a thread through it, instead of putting a washer on the inside of the outer pot.

ATM I am trying to juggle the pump, fittings, element ends and control box so I can decide where to drill the holes in the main pot. Oh and I still have not got the code flashed up to the controller because I have not got the upload process sorted out. It has been sitting for far too long because of competing priorities (read - the missus won't let me play in the shed for very long atm). I am getting antsy about it not being finished yet.

I may have found a place to get the plates... we will see. I need to go visit for offcuts. Although they said they don't normally do perf. So we will see. I still need to finish my calcs for the malt pipe. Once I have finalised where to get the plates I'll prob be more antsy to get a move on!

 

[lael]

ok,

I've been running some numbers based on brews @ OG of 1040, 1052, 1074, 1103 (near impossible). I've also placed edak's build and the braumeister numbers in for reference & comparison.

Malted - did you say a 20L malt pipe batch on the 50L really is about a 30L batch? The numbers I am hitting suggest a 20L batch would run out of water.

Otherwise - hitting a blend of being able to do both is hard. Quite hard. I think the top scenario I have would work. I'm still not convinced I have the formula / relationship for figuring out Pre Boil / sparge water correct. If someone could check it and find an issue that would be awesome.

Love any feedback on this.

Some related Q's - what is the minimum volume of water to avoid a compacted grain bed / stuck sparge (ie pump can't handle it) on a braumeister / clone? With a lower number would a larger pump solve the problem?

Edit: realised BigW pot specs were wrong on spreadsheet - adjusted and re-uploaded.

View attachment Lael's Braumiser_Volume_ScenarioTester.xls

 

[Malted]

Lael: I noticed a few things.
It is a big table and my head hurts from looking at it. I only do simple numbers. I will have to give it more thought.

The section pertaining to the 50L BM.
so you have calculated the maximum volume of the regular malt pipe as being 33.67L and that the maximum grain amount is 9.23 kg. I have had up to 13kg (and thought I could go a couple more) but I do not believe you could fit 20kg of grain into the regular maltpipe. How is it useful to calculate values outside of reality?

Minimum height of water will depend upon how high your element sits in the main vessel.

I am not sure that a more powerful pump would overcome a low liqour to grist ratio.

Edit: I had liqour and grist around the wrong way.

 

[lael]

HI Malted,

Thanks for taking a look at it. Its basically a number of scenarios just to see what is / isn't possible. The formulae are identical from row to row except they reference the values from the row they are in.

The crazy numbers are there for comparison and to keep all scenarios the same (comparing four different gravities per pot sizing scenario). The dashed line is between scenarios. A green highlighted cell means the numbers are in expected ranges, red means they are outside expected ranges.

I don't really expect to fit 20kg in the malt pipe at all.

13Kg in the 50L malt pipe is a liquor - grist ratio of 2.59L/kg - If that still works well- that is partially what I was looking for - to find the minimum liquor/grist ratios to figure out the gravity range that is possible for different pot sizes. Is there a maximum liquor to grist ratio required to allow a proper grain bed to form/ can you have too much liquid and not enough grain in the malt pipe? (although I guess that isn't a problem you have faced - is there a minimum grain bill Speidel recommend not to go under?

 

[Malted]

HI Malted,

(although I guess that isn't a problem you have faced - is there a minimum grain bill Speidel recommend not to go under?

Speidel reccommend a range of 9-11kg for the 50L BM.
I have not done a low gravity with the regular malt pipe. I did a 28L batch of 1.040 with 4.5kg of grain in the short malt pipe, I would need to dig up my paper based notes to determine volumes.
Regular malt pipe 13kg produced 53L batch at 1.062.
The only higher gravity brews I have done were either on the regular pipe and boiled down or with the short malt pipe and boiled down.

 

[Edak]

So far my largest grain bill was 4.9kg. I think I could have fit another 300g but I will not likely go past 5kg.

I originally entered into my beerSmith notes:
"16.5L volume in the malt pipe. 0.65L/kg displacement of grain at ratio of 2.8L/kg we have a max grain weight of about 4.8kg"

 

[MastersBrewery]

Lael: I noticed a few things.
It is a big table and my head hurts from looking at it. I only do simple numbers. I will have to give it more thought.

The section pertaining to the 50L BM.
so you have calculated the maximum volume of the regular malt pipe as being 33.67L and that the maximum grain amount is 9.23 kg. I have had up to 13kg (and thought I could go a couple more) but I do not believe you could fit 20kg of grain into the regular maltpipe. How is it useful to calculate values outside of reality?

I note the BM's malt pipe is nearly exactly double Edak's clone so he could theoretically put 6.5kg in that puppy!!






Edit: too early for my typing skills

 

[lael]

So far my largest grain bill was 4.9kg. I think I could have fit another 300g but I will not likely go past 5kg.

I originally entered into my beerSmith notes:
"16.5L volume in the malt pipe. 0.65L/kg displacement of grain at ratio of 2.8L/kg we have a max grain weight of about 4.8kg"

Thanks! That's helpful practical information. Did you find it was struggling with 5kg? or reckon you could squeeze more in?

I note the BM's malt pipe is nearly exactly double Edak's clone so he could theoretically put 6.5kg in that puppy!!

It's true in the height - but I think the diameter is 31 at the top of the Big W pot and 29 at the bottom, and the braumeister is 35 - which might explain the difference. I'd love to have Edak try and report back though

 

[Edak]

As I mentioned in my earlier post I don't think that I will put much more than 5kg in there, I want to have a good flow past the grain and don't really like the idea of wort fountains.

If my ratio is already at 2.8/kg when mashing 4.8kg then you can see why I won't move much.

Matho did the maths (pardon my pun) which is correct and I think you (Lael) have misunderstood. You don't seem to be taking the grain volume into consideration. If I have 16.5L available volume in the malt pipe (between the filter plates), an assumed grain displacement of 0.65L/kg and a 2.8L/kg water/grain ratio then I need a total volume of 2.8+0.65=3.45L per kg of grain.

16.5L total volume gives me a total grain weight of 16.5/3.45=4.78kg

Using your suggested grain weight of 6.5kg I would have a grain/water ratio of (16.5/6.5)-0.65=1.88L/kg and in my opinion that would be unrealistic.

 

[lael]

Hi Edak,

Thanks for the reply - I do understand, and I don't think it awfully realistic, but more an interesting experiment. Malted mentioned doing 13Kg in the 50L braumeister, which resulted in a 1062 wort. Ratio (including displacement) would be 2.59/ ideal 3.6. If you were to try a 1070 wort / OG, You would need 6.2kg @ 70% efficiency (according to clone brews), which would leave you at 2.43 / ideal 3.6. 200ml less per litre than malted's actual scenario. I'm not sure whether it would fit / work, but as I'm planning and buying parts to build one - of course I'm curious to know the actual limits a braumiser / braumeister can handle (allows better pot/malt pipe sizing etc).

I can't imagine it would actually cause any damage - oh wait - I suppose the pressure could build up and cause the fountains you are talking about. Would be messy perhaps, but I can't imagine any permanent damage? But by no means imagine I'm suggesting you should actually do something you are uncomfortable with.... just egging you on a little

One of the things I don't have that you do have is on the ground experience - is there a way to tell when the braumiser seems to be struggling with a set volume of grain before it causes wort fountains?

How is your top filter solution going by the way? I thought it was ingenious and plan to do the same thing. Are you still using (from memory from your build posts) a pizza tray as the lower filter? How far off the bottom of the Big W pot / malt pipe do you have it?

 

[mr_wibble]

can anyone explain the wiring on these probes? the site says it's single wire interface, yet shows 3 wires and the thermometer they link is 12Volt, . Is there any chance these would work on an STC1000?

Looking at the flat-side - the pins are GND, Data, VCC.
If you get the GND and VCC reversed these things can get very hot (don't ask how I know).

I've attached an image, which is part of a bigger circuit I made for my own reference.
But the wiring for the DS18B20 is quite clear.

 

[Edak]

Hi Edak,

...I can't imagine it would actually cause any damage ...

... is there a way to tell when the braumiser seems to be struggling with a set volume of grain before it causes wort fountains?

How is your top filter solution going by the way? I thought it was ingenious and plan to do the same thing. Are you still using (from memory from your build posts) a pizza tray as the lower filter? How far off the bottom of the Big W pot / malt pipe do you have it?

Hi Lael,

A block stops flow, which increases pressure on the plates, which results in fountains and (if like myself you have not got 2mm thick steel plates) possible bent plates, not to mention hot wort all over the place and an interrupted/possibly harmed mash. There is no tell-tale sign before this that I have been able to identify. The plates aren't permanently damaged but it would be a pain in the *** if they were to bend enough to let some grain get out of the MP and into your pump.

Pizza tray is running perfectly, it sits upon the silicone tube which I use to seal the MP so I guess that's about 13mm from the base of the pot.

EDIT: Going by the original stated values for ratio (by Matho), he doesn't recommend less than 2.3L/kg so going off that I could potentially get 16.5/(2.3+0.65)=5.6kg There's hope for you yet!

 

[bonj]

Perhaps a flow sensor might be beneficial if you are worried about blocking.... just need to find one rated to boiling. The cheap one I have is not.

 

[Edak]

I am not worried about blocking, but I would if I were to try and stuff 6.5kg of grain into my MP...

 

[lael]

Hi Lael,

A block stops flow, which increases pressure on the plates, which results in fountains and (if like myself you have not got 2mm thick steel plates) possible bent plates, not to mention hot wort all over the place and an interrupted/possibly harmed mash. There is no tell-tale sign before this that I have been able to identify. The plates aren't permanently damaged but it would be a pain in the *** if they were to bend enough to let some grain get out of the MP and into your pump.

Pizza tray is running perfectly, it sits upon the silicone tube which I use to seal the MP so I guess that's about 13mm from the base of the pot.

EDIT: Going by the original stated values for ratio (by Matho), he doesn't recommend less than 2.3L/kg so going off that I could potentially get 16.5/(2.3+0.65)=5.6kg There's hope for you yet!

hehe well, here's hoping!

ok - cool - I'll start looking for a tray or similar that can serve as my bottom plate. I guess it still needs to be strong enough to hold the grain and water when you lift - so prob still needs to be quite strong? Have you done anything to baffle the water flow from the skin fitting to the grain? or is just having a small space with water there enough? I guess its impossible to tell whether you have even flow through the grain bed once it's all in the malt pipe.

 

[lael]

Hi,

So... slowly assembling all my pieces. Think I still need to get silicone hose for the malt pipe seal and some for wort transfer. is 3/8 the right ID for the malt pipe seal? 3mm wall thickness?

I also need to start cutting the stainless - any suggestions on how to cut the bottom of the malt pipe pot out? I also got some stainless plate for the upper and lower filter - again - any suggestions on cutting technique would be helpful.

Lastly - I'm not sure if this is possible, but would it be possible / anyone know of a way to put in a 4KW heater or similar in the pot, but then have a switch / circuit so that you could cut it's power draw down to 2400w for a 10A circuit? ie - if its on a 15/20A circuit, switch is one way, 10A the switch is another way.

 

[Edak]

hehe well, here's hoping!

ok - cool - I'll start looking for a tray or similar that can serve as my bottom plate. I guess it still needs to be strong enough to hold the grain and water when you lift - so prob still needs to be quite strong? Have you done anything to baffle the water flow from the skin fitting to the grain? or is just having a small space with water there enough? I guess its impossible to tell whether you have even flow through the grain bed once it's all in the malt pipe.

If it is stainless then it should be strong enough. I think that the pressure would be close to even across the bottom before the plate and mesh. How fast does a water pressure wave propagate?

Hi,

So... slowly assembling all my pieces. Think I still need to get silicone hose for the malt pipe seal and some for wort transfer. is 3/8 the right ID for the malt pipe seal? 3mm wall thickness?

I also need to start cutting the stainless - any suggestions on how to cut the bottom of the malt pipe pot out? I also got some stainless plate for the upper and lower filter - again - any suggestions on cutting technique would be helpful.

Lastly - I'm not sure if this is possible, but would it be possible / anyone know of a way to put in a 4KW heater or similar in the pot, but then have a switch / circuit so that you could cut it's power draw down to 2400w for a 10A circuit? ie - if its on a 15/20A circuit, switch is one way, 10A the switch is another way.

The hose sounds like the right one, as long as it is the soft silicone hose. I used an angle grinder to cut the base out of the pot, faster than a dremel (which I tried), just mark where you want to cut and cut away, use a metal (stainless) cutting disc to cut and a flap disc to clean it up.

There is no method for converting a 20A element to a 10A element...

 

[lael]

If it is stainless then it should be strong enough. I think that the pressure would be close to even across the bottom before the plate and mesh. How fast does a water pressure wave propagate?



The hose sounds like the right one, as long as it is the soft silicone hose. I used an angle grinder to cut the base out of the pot, faster than a dremel (which I tried), just mark where you want to cut and cut away, use a metal (stainless) cutting disc to cut and a flap disc to clean it up.

There is no method for converting a 20A element to a 10A element...

excellent - thanks for your advice! How did you make sure it was circular - go round and round until you got through? or cut straightish lines through and then clean up later? Any recommendations on how fine / coarse a flap disc to get?

I haven't worked with stainless before, but have heard it is quite a tough material. Any recommendations? How long did it take to cut your circle out?

 

[angus_grant]

So I had a brain fart in my Brewton thread. I have been planning to use a 9" false bottom for the bottom filter in my malt pipe. And then I suddenly realised that the top of the Big W pot is 30cm which is 12". So perhaps a 12" false bottom could be the top filter plate. I've still got to check whether the false bottom would cover the malt pipe, etc, etc...

The loss of volume in the malt pipe due to the domed bottom filter would be accounted for in the domed top filter.....

Any reason not to use false bottoms besides ignoring the whole Braumiser theme and spending some $$$'s..... Be about $100 for two false bottoms....