Braumeister NEXTGEN Build

[wobbly]

Hi

Why are some (lots?) brewers so hung up about not allowing any of the boil off to return back into the kettle? ie. "Must boil with lid off" With some going to great lengths to design and fit a system to catch and return to the outside of the vessel any condensate and I'm not taking a cheap shot at anyone with this statement.

I went and had a look at the copper domes that Braumeister make for their units and the dome has a rubber locating seal that fits around the edge of the dome and a turned down lip (90 degree molding) locates the whole dome assembly onto/into the top of the Braumeister. Any condensate that forms on the inside of the dome will return back into the boiling unit.

The hole in the center of the dome is about 150mm dia and to allow a "percentage of boil off' to escape.

So what am I (and Braumeister) missing when it is stated in many places on this forum that you can't/shouldn't allow any condensate to return to the kettle

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[dkaos]

Wobbly I think this generally comes into play with Lager malts. Not having a sufficient boil off can result in DMS (dimethyl sulfide) which can cause a cooked cabbage smell and taste.

 

[QldKev]

When you look at most commercial breweries they all use the funnel shaped top.

Here's one


mmm, do I really need to mod my brewery.. again :huh:

 

[dmac80]

Yep,

Visited a local microbrewery for a brew day recently and domed kettle lid is fixed directly to the kettle sides, with a central chimney to vent steam.

Their lager displays no signs of dms at all...

Cheers
Dan

 

[Malted]

IMO.
I don't think a domed lid should be used in isolation. As dmac has said the brewery he visited use a central chimney to vent steam. In a commercial brewery such as that in the Youtube clip posted by QldKev it would not be desirable to have the confined space full of steam, that is what it is about. Domed lid AND chimney, think of it as a rangehood if you like.

Given the high density population in Germany, I'd imagine not many of them would have a shed etc to brew in and thus the product has been designed mostly to cater to people who might be brewing in their kitchen or bathroom etc. Spiedel have built the Braumeister to be a good apartment brewers' weapon of choice where other systems would be too large. Would you want your apartment full of steam? I don't have a domed lid and chimney or any other structure to vent the steam away from the brew area and have issues with my shed being full of steam; particularly in cooler weather it condenses on the roof and drips all over the place and I have to be careful that I am not getting dust, cobwebs and nasties from the roof dripping back into the BM.

I think some folks get hung up on the bling factor of having such a domed lid and forget the practical nature of it, that is it is meant to be used with a chimney to vent steam outside of the brewing area. I think you would also need an exhaust fan too or otherwise it is just going to act as a big condenser and eventually return everything to the pot.

Some folks also claim that a domed lid reduces ramping times and that they get a better/quicker boil, IMO this is not what the domed lid is meant for. Insulate the main vessel if this is what you're after.

Rather than just copying Spiedel for the sake of cloning it, understand what the components are meant to do and then decide if you need all of them and what other bits you may need. Are you wanting a domed lid for its function, or its bling factor?

Here's a chap that understands what such a device is used for and has built one himself (with a fan):


http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/brew-magic...647/index2.html


My 2 cents worth. If you disagree, and many will, that is fine and dandy.

 

[angus_grant]

Nice reply malted. I certainly wouldn't be adding a domed lid if I didn't have to. The 2400W element (I didn't want to go above 10A) I've installed only produces a very slight rolling boil of 30L or water and I've yet to test it out with wort. I purchased my pot before finding out about how important pot height vs diameter is with regards to boil strength. Placing the pot lid on results in a very strong boil, and even placing the lid 2/3rds across the pot results in a strong boil.

I have insulated the sides and bottom of my pot and this made a slight difference to the strength of the boil. I haven't really found any good text on whether the strength of the boil is important or not. Until I can get my experience up and do some experiments I only go on the general consensus on the forum here that a strong boil is better than a weak one.

So whilst I may not end up going with a domed lid, I will fabricate some device to cut down on the pots diameter to increase the boil strength

 

[Malted]

only produces a very slight rolling boil of 30L or water and I've yet to test it out with wort.
Placing the pot lid on results in a very strong boil (1), and even placing the lid 2/3rds across the pot results in a strong boil.

I have insulated the sides and bottom of my pot and this made a slight difference to the strength of the boil. I haven't really found any good text (2) on whether the strength of the boil is important or not. Until I can get my experience up and do some experiments I only go on the general consensus (3) on the forum here that a strong boil is better than a weak one.

So whilst I may not end up going with a domed lid, I will fabricate some device to cut down on the pots diameter to increase the boil strength

Perhaps off topic again, but it does relate to whether you might need a domed lid for your BrauClone.

(1) A massive, high energy, molten lava boil may not be neccessary. A rolling boil is what you need but what is that? There's a good discussion of it here; ThirstyBoy describes it : http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=660185

(2) MHB posts a link to "The Function of Wort Boiling" - it's a good read. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=923464

(3) Some general consensus' are urban myths. Weak boil and strong boil are quite subjective terms but a rolling boil (also subjective) is probably not what you would call, boiling strong. TB also suggests why boiling too hard can be a bad thing (in the first link).

 

[angus_grant]

All good points again, and thanks for the links. Good reading. And I think the post from ThirstyBoy bears out my thoughts on needing to cover the pot somewhat to increase the strength of the boil.

The boil I get is VERY gentle bubbles which do very little to the surface of the water and there is very little convection current occurring. There is some dirt and crap in the pot which don't really circulate anywhere.

And I've no idea on my evaporation rate but I would guess it would be much higher than the 15% rate mentioned. Something I can directly test out and get results on.

I suppose my point about the general consensus was that enough people on the Internet have said it for it to appear plausible and worth something (2 cents?). Until I can find an authoritative source on the subject (or gain enough experience to form an opinion) all I have to go on is the general consensus. So time for me to start reading some more advanced brewing books.

 

[lael]

Was looking at the new craftbrewer 100L kettles, and I think they look perfect for a single/double/triple batch BrauMeiser

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4769

View attachment 58924

The dimensions are apparently 460x600, which is just 20mm wider than a true BM50, and an extra 40mm in height + a domed lid. The extra height combined with trimming some of the wasted space should mean you can bump up to a 60L batch, and with a short malt pipe still be able to do a 20/23L batch, and regular doubles or super strong doubles.

The numbers just don't work out very well with my current 50x50 98L pot... and it seems like a waste of a very good pot when you don't really need the quality.

I've had a fiddle with the braumeister volume calculator...

View attachment 58923

First two sheets are the large and small option. I'm not sure my understanding of the requirements is 100%, but basically, the CB pot seems to have a domed lid, which means the malt pipe can come right up to the rim of the pot, so I went with a 350x600 maltpipe for maximum batch sizes.

This means you can re-use a true BM seal, and it leaves 50+mm on either side of the MP for elements and plumbing.

Any thoughts?

I found a pot in chinatown for $70 - think it is a 70L pot roughly 45cmx45cm. The weld lines etc were noticeable. I was hoping to do a similar thing to what you are thinking stux - particularly doubles of high gravity. (Steve - you mentioned getting one in chinatown - do you know what size it roughly is / remember what brand it is - how is it still going?)

When playing around with the same calculator I noticed that in using a smaller malt pipe it was still asking for a large amount of water to prevent dry runs. Is it possible to start pre-boil with a larger amount of water and just boil more off to get to the target or would that mess with the taste / characteristics of the beer - assuming you boil down to your pre boil volume and then do a normal boil with hops etc?

Some other questions - if welds are noticeable - is this more likely to lead to rusting / leaking that people have mentioned about other imported pots?

What is the minimum distance around the malt pipe required for heating elements etc?

Are people doing manual whirlpools or building it into the pumping flow?

someone was thinking about (sorry - lost who and where in the pages and pages of thread) using ss ebay heating elements and bending them - anyone know if this went ahead and the results?
what about using this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271050111847?ss...984.m1439.l2649 as the internal element (inside mash pipe)

it sounds like 2400watt is the largest a single 10A household circuit can take - how do braumeister do theirs with two elements?

its hard to tell from people's build photos - are heating elements ok with touching each other (as they go around the pot) or are they bent / kept separate in some other way? if so - how?

has anyone used a little brown pump for a large system / high gravity? worth trying or just skip to something larger?

it sounds like pots boil better when they are narrow and tall rather than same height / diameter - but it seems like most pots have square cross sections/ equal dimensions. How much difference does it make?

it seems like there have been differing reports on how effective a 2400w element has been for different people. Is there a difference in the heating efficiency / effectiveness a bendable element between brands or are they likely to all be roughly similar?

ok - 55 pages of questions out

love your help for any / all of them you can!

 

[angus_grant]

I'm not sure there is a minimum required space around elements. Certainly nothing was mentioned to me when purchasing my element. I actually left my 2 pots there and they bent up the element for me so I would assume they would have bent it up for minimum spacing requirements.

And once again, they made no mention of the element touching itself (snigger snigger). And the control box they gave me promotes the element touching itself given the spacing I could achieve between the electrodes entering back out of the pot.

I am fairly sure the BM 50L system (with the 2 elements) is a 15A system. I am fairly sure the BM 20L system only has one element and is 10A. Or it could be that the 50L has one single higher powered heating element?

With my 40cm * 40cm 50L pot, it achieves a very gently boil, barely enough to disturb the surface of the water. I have not actually tried boiling wort yet, so not really sure if it is harder to boil than straight water. Maybe I should knock out an extract to see if there is a difference between water and wort?

I have already added insulation and am now in the process of finding a stainless steel bowl to cut up as a hood. Have found one on eBay and I should receive it early next week. Will then copy Edak's drainage system for the condensation.

 

[Edak]

I'm not sure there is a minimum required space around elements. Certainly nothing was mentioned to me when purchasing my element. I actually left my 2 pots there and they bent up the element for me so I would assume they would have bent it up for minimum spacing requirements.

And once again, they made no mention of the element touching itself (snigger snigger). And the control box they gave me promotes the element touching itself given the spacing I could achieve between the electrodes entering back out of the pot.

I am fairly sure the BM 50L system (with the 2 elements) is a 15A system. I am fairly sure the BM 20L system only has one element and is 10A. Or it could be that the 50L has one single higher powered heating element?

With my 40cm * 40cm 50L pot, it achieves a very gently boil, barely enough to disturb the surface of the water. I have not actually tried boiling wort yet, so not really sure if it is harder to boil than straight water. Maybe I should knock out an extract to see if there is a difference between water and wort?

I have already added insulation and am now in the process of finding a stainless steel bowl to cut up as a hood. Have found one on eBay and I should receive it early next week. Will then copy Edak's drainage system for the condensation.

The drainage system was fairly simple to produce, just ensure that when you cut the hose that you pay attention to the curl/shape of the hose and that you cut the upper side/edge so it fits easier on the pot. Don't let the hose twist as you cut it because it won't stay on if you do!

My system is still going strong, going to be putting down an ESB this week, have done about 5-6 batches on it already with no problems (though I love to refine my code to add features). The next step, auto-hopper.

 

[bigbanko]

On my Clone I used a 50L pot and cut a 150mm diameter hole in the lid. With a 2400w element and 30L of wort this gives a very good even rolling boil. If I remove the lid I get a similar boil to what angus has explained.
The hole in the lid still lets out quite an amount of steam. I did an Oatmeal Stout today and lost approx 5L to the 75 min boil.

The little brown pump I got from Gryphon shit it's self just at the end of the mash (luckily). I thought it may have had a stray grain jam it, but checked it out and all was pretty clean so it appears to have failed electrically. Used it once on a trial with water and this was the first time with wort. i always new this may be the weak link so I have a Topsflow magnetic pump on hand as a replacement.

I also need a pickup tube inside as I left about 3L behind

Other than the pump all went really well and the clone worked a treat.

 

[Malted]

it sounds like 2400watt is the largest a single 10A household circuit can take - how do braumeister do theirs with two elements?

its hard to tell from people's build photos - are heating elements ok with touching each other (as they go around the pot) or are they bent / kept separate in some other way? if so - how?

has anyone used a little brown pump for a large system / high gravity? worth trying or just skip to something larger?

it seems like there have been differing reports on how effective a 2400w element has been for different people.

Yes. Long answer is Watts / Volts = Amps. 2400w / 240v = 10a. Yes 2400 watts is the maximum for a 10 amp circuit (there are other factors but lets just stay simple).
15 amp circuits are the next commonly installed in houses and sheds (eg a lot of kitchen stoves have a 15amp circuit). 3600 / 240 = 15. Thus on a 15amp circuit you could run 3600 watt appliances. You can get a sparky in to install a 15 amp circuit if you want one. Some folks bypass this by running multiple 2400watt elements powered from DIFFERENT circuits in their kettles (they use extension cords). Extension cords all over the place is potetnially a hazard and a PITA. 50L Braumeister needs a 15 amp circuit. 20L BM only requires a 10amp circuit. More detail in answer to 'angus_grant'.

Braumeisters touch themselves (snigger).

Yes they have, results vary. They seem to fail more than other pumps in this setup.

2400w elements have variable results because different people try to boil different volumes in different types of pots under different conditions. The other factor is how long it takes to boil/heat.
Example with 2400 watts, 30L of water would take 42 minutes to come up to mash in temp of 68oC from 22oC. With 3600 watts, 30L of water would take 28 minutes to come up to 68oC from 22oC.
Like wise, 60L of water with 2400w would take 68 minutes (from 22oC to 68oC) and 3600w would take 56 minutes.
So 2400w of 30L has a ramp rate of 1.09oC/minute, 3600w of 30L = 1.64oC/minute.
Also 2400w of 60L = 0.67oC/minute and 3600w of 60L = 0.82oC/minute.
For shits and giggles let's say we have two 2400w elements on different supply circuits in the kettle to heat 60L of water from 22oC to 68oC, this would take 48 minutes or 0.95oC/minute ramp rate. (These values from "Boil Time Calculator": http://www.phpdoc.info/brew/boilcalc.html and include 95% efficiency but with an uninsulated pot in a breeze it could be significantly lower and thus take much longer)
This is for water. Wort has a different density and heating energy requirements. FWIW a 50L Braumeister which runs TWO elements to a combined total of 3200 watts, in most situations has a heating ramp time of about 1oC/minute. Just from a time value, it looks to me like 2400w is ok for 30L (single batch unit) but you'd need 3600w or so for 60L (double batch unit).

It is not just about the amount of watts but is also about the wattage density of the element. The Braumeister and many of the clones use low wattage density elements. A short element at 2400watts could more readily scortch wort than say a 2400w element 1.2m long that is bent to coil around inside of the pot. 2400w in 20cm versus 2400w in 1.2m.

And once again, they made no mention of the element touching itself (snigger snigger).

I am fairly sure the BM 50L system (with the 2 elements) is a 15A system. I am fairly sure the BM 20L system only has one element and is 10A. Or it could be that the 50L has one single higher powered heating element?

As i said above, mine touches itself (snigger).

Yes 50L BM has a center element under the malt pipe and an outer element around the outside of the malt pipe. The 50L is meant to be run on a 15amp circuit (3200w combined total watts of elements + pump + controller). A 20L BM only has one element around the outside of the malt pipe; it has an element of 2000 watts.

On my Clone I used a 50L pot and cut a 150mm diameter hole in the lid. With a 2400w element and 30L of wort this gives a very good even rolling boil. If I remove the lid I get a similar boil to what angus has explained.
The hole in the lid still lets out quite an amount of steam. I did an Oatmeal Stout today and lost approx 5L to the 75 min boil.

The lid would increase the efficiency as there is not so much loss of energy outside of the pot. This chap (http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/0...for-efficiency/) found he got 16% efficieny with a pot of water on the stove with no lid but the same pot with a complete lid and a SMALLER burner he got 27% efficiency.

You would seem to have 16% total evaporation with 3.99L/hr loss to evaporation. Factor in cooling loss, loss to trub etc and I think your losses are quite high, possibly too high. This would suggest to me that perhaps you are boiling too vigorously, i.e you are evaporating too much wort. 10-12% loss to evap seems to be about the norm. I get 10-12% evap with a rolling boil that appears to be just the wort turning over.

Hopefully this is thought food for y'all. My head hurts, maths numbers and I don't generally get along. :icon_vomit:

 

[angus_grant]

I have already added insulation and am now in the process of finding a stainless steel bowl to cut up as a hood. Have found one on eBay and I should receive it early next week. Will then copy Edak's drainage system for the condensation.

A friend told me about a kitchen warehouse place (on the corner of Tooheys road and Evans Road in Moorooka in Brisbane). Went there and they had one remaining SS pot (although very thin) in the exact size I needed. And for the princely sum of $15 including 15% discount).

10 minutes with the dremel and voila: spanky new hood for my brau-clone

I was getting some bits and pieces from CraftBrewer and took a video in of the boil. Ross had a look and said it was fine. He also mentioned that the hood was allowing enough steam out to not worry about DMS (it is actually about the same dimensions as the BM hood) so at this point, I will not be worrying about drainage for the hood. Simplifies things somewhat although I will have to work out a "condensation return system" as the pot allows dripping down the outside of the pot. This will be easier than a drainage system though. Done...

Also drilled hole in pot for one of the stainless skin fittings and fitted brown pump and 3-piece ball valve and then cam-lock fittings. I may look at doing a recirc BIAB run for the first run, but my initial thinking it to keep it as simple as possible so probably just normal BIAB. Will need tweak some changes for my PID temp control processes (running ferment fridge at the moment) to control the mashing process before I can do the BIAB though.

Progress is finally being made....

 

[Edak]

A friend told me about a kitchen warehouse place (on the corner of Tooheys road and Evans Road in Moorooka in Brisbane). Went there and they had one remaining SS pot (although very thin) in the exact size I needed. And for the princely sum of $15 including 15% discount).

10 minutes with the dremel and voila: spanky new hood for my brau-clone

I was getting some bits and pieces from CraftBrewer and took a video in of the boil. Ross had a look and said it was fine. He also mentioned that the hood was allowing enough steam out to not worry about DMS (it is actually about the same dimensions as the BM hood) so at this point, I will not be worrying about drainage for the hood. Simplifies things somewhat although I will have to work out a "condensation return system" as the pot allows dripping down the outside of the pot. This will be easier than a drainage system though. Done...

Also drilled hole for one of the stainless skin fittings and fitted brown pump and 3-piece ball valve and then cam-lock fittings. I may look at doing a recirc BIAB run for the first run, but my initial thinking it to keep pit as simple as possible so probably just normal BIAB. Will need tweak some changes for my PID temp control processes (running ferment fridge at the moment) to control the mashing process before I can do the BIAB though.

Progress is finally being made....

Good one angus, I probably did go over the top with my drainage system (which lets face it is just a piece of hose with a few cuts in it). It looks like the same type of pot as mine, terribly thin and makes a good 'gong' when it bangs on the ground/table/whatever. I have no DMS worries considering that my boil off rate is so high already (11% or so) with the lid on.

I LOVE YOUR PHOTO, nice to see you waving to the camera

Keep us updated on your build. The biggest shame for me is that I haven't been able to actually show off my system to anyone who brews other than on the forum, but I am working on it.

 

[angus_grant]

was very "ringy" and "vibraty" when cutting it up. Very thin. Probably worth about $10. ha ha

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on me waving....

I have a few friends that homebrew but they are all kit+kilo guys. I did go to BABBs a few times but I just didn't have the spare time with our young fellow at home. Sounds silly with it being one night a month, but it was more the fact that I did not have any homebrew to take with me, and I had more valuable things to do if I was going to take a personal night. This may change in the future though. I did enjoy going to those nights and it would be good to make some AG friends to leach advice from.

 

[stux]

I found a pot in chinatown for $70 - think it is a 70L pot roughly 45cmx45cm. The weld lines etc were noticeable. I was hoping to do a similar thing to what you are thinking stux - particularly doubles of high gravity. (Steve - you mentioned getting one in chinatown - do you know what size it roughly is / remember what brand it is - how is it still going?)

Taller rather than wider is better... says the owner of a square 98L and 50L pot

When playing around with the same calculator I noticed that in using a smaller malt pipe it was still asking for a large amount of water to prevent dry runs. Is it possible to start pre-boil with a larger amount of water and just boil more off to get to the target or would that mess with the taste / characteristics of the beer - assuming you boil down to your pre boil volume and then do a normal boil with hops etc?

Extra boiling will add extra browning reactions (mailard) and extra caramellyness... sometimes desireable, but not always... and extra time. I would not design a syste to require it!

Some other questions - if welds are noticeable - is this more likely to lead to rusting / leaking that people have mentioned about other imported pots?

What is the minimum distance around the malt pipe required for heating elements etc?

Are people doing manual whirlpools or building it into the pumping flow?

someone was thinking about (sorry - lost who and where in the pages and pages of thread) using ss ebay heating elements and bending them - anyone know if this went ahead and the results?
what about using this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271050111847?ss...984.m1439.l2649 as the internal element (inside mash pipe)

it sounds like 2400watt is the largest a single 10A household circuit can take - how do braumeister do theirs with two elements?

SWMBO has given provisional approval to install a 3 phase outlet while we're doing our rennovations (already got 3 phase in the box and to an a/c), so I'm actually thinking of going 3 phase for the boil kettle... if its not excessive... i dunno. will think about it more later

Going to have to get a 25A circuit installed for a UPS, and have done so in the past, so i know how expensive something more than 15A is! But if 15A is needed for 50L pots... then I imagine 30A is needed for a 100L pot... 3 phases at 10A sounds cheaper to me... but would mean 3 elements?

The 100L BM is a long term project... need to finish the 100L HERMS first

its hard to tell from people's build photos - are heating elements ok with touching each other (as they go around the pot) or are they bent / kept separate in some other way? if so - how?

has anyone used a little brown pump for a large system / high gravity? worth trying or just skip to something larger?

it sounds like pots boil better when they are narrow and tall rather than same height / diameter - but it seems like most pots have square cross sections/ equal dimensions. How much difference does it make?

it seems like there have been differing reports on how effective a 2400w element has been for different people. Is there a difference in the heating efficiency / effectiveness a bendable element between brands or are they likely to all be roughly similar?

ok - 55 pages of questions out

love your help for any / all of them you can!

 

[lael]

Malted - thanks for your excellent answer! It is very helpful! I'm trying to figure out if it is worth the hassle of building a larger machine. It seems hard to find large pots that are tall and narrow for cheap for thermal efficiency (and for 2 same diameter but different capacity malt pipes), and the extra element /power circuit required seems to add up costs and complexity. Any comment on how often you use your 20L malt pipe vs doing a 50L batch?

 

[lael]

Taller rather than wider is better... says the owner of a square 98L and 50L pot




Extra boiling will add extra browning reactions (mailard) and extra caramellyness... sometimes desireable, but not always... and extra time. I would not design a syste to require it!



SWMBO has given provisional approval to install a 3 phase outlet while we're doing our rennovations (already got 3 phase in the box and to an a/c), so I'm actually thinking of going 3 phase for the boil kettle... if its not excessive... i dunno. will think about it more later

Going to have to get a 25A circuit installed for a UPS, and have done so in the past, so i know how expensive something more than 15A is! But if 15A is needed for 50L pots... then I imagine 30A is needed for a 100L pot... 3 phases at 10A sounds cheaper to me... but would mean 3 elements?

The 100L BM is a long term project... need to finish the 100L HERMS first

taller is wider - lol, yeap... I think for the price difference I will prob go for a kettle lid, unless I can source similarly inexpensive, more appropriately shaped pots. The square ones I've found for about a dollar a litre capacity. I think craftbrewer ones are much nicer, but about double.


thanks stux! that's helpful - not being an AG brewer yet - what is the normal 'headspace' on a 20L and 40L brew - I think from reading posts etc it seems normal for about a 10-15% boil off? Does that sound about right? - so if making a 20L system I would be looking at starting pre-boil with about 23L? How does sparge water factor in to this amount?

 

[lael]

I think what I am really struggling with may be a limitation of a 1V recirculating system? I want to do a big beer - Delirium Tremens is one of my faves - so I would like to be able to make it in this. It takes a 5.5kg grain bill, then later (no problem) a kilo or so of candi syrup.

I've attached my volume calculations to get some feedback on as I'm not sure what is / isn't reasonable and possible to be aiming for

View attachment Lael__s_Braumiser_Volume_Calculations.xls