Bore Water contains Iron & Copper

[Mardoo]

Basically during and post-fermentation. copper ions in the wort are fine. Using copper implements during wort production is fine. You don't want the fermenting or finished beer to be in direct contact with copper implements. I originally got this information from the Brew Strong show.

 

[wynnum1]

Drink the beer and not the water its safer.

 

[RichardLavender]

Hi Mardoo - apologies for the confusion but I still don't totally understand your meaning. You write:

Basically during and post-fermentation. copper ions in the wort are fine. Using copper implements during wort production is fine. You don't want the fermenting or finished beer to be in direct contact with copper implements.

Using water to make a wort that is high in copper is ok because of the boiling process but after the wort and adding additional water containing copper is not ok. Correct?

 

[Mardoo]

Correct. With provisions

The information I have regarding avoiding copper during or post-fermentation pertains to copper implements, e.g. a copper fermenter or storage vessel. I expect the addition of copper-bearing water during or after fermentation would have a significantly lesser effect, but I don't know for sure.

Basically, if I were in your situation I would not add your water to the wort or fermenter post-boil, but would give it a go for making wort.

 

[wobbly]

Hi RL

You indicate that your copper and Iron come from your bore water. It would be unlikely to be in the rain water. If you are close to the Ocean your salt/sodium content may be high in the rain water

To understand where you are at/going it would be best to know just what level of copper and iron (PPM) are in your bore water from there you can/could adopt a dilution regime otherwise you are just shooting in the dark. If/once you know these dilution at 1:1 will halve the concentration and 2:1 will reduce it to 25%

WRT to "bugs" in your rain water don't get too paranoid as lots of brewers use rain water with little or no treatment. If you are overly concerned just pasteurize the water (heat to around 70C and hold for about 10 to 15 mins) and that will kill all the bugs likely to impact on the brew. Others will claim it is necessary to boil but I don't believe that to be necessary

for what it's worth

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Feldon]

Just reminder that the OP is making extract brews using top-up water, and using fresh wort kits topped up with water.

So if there are microbes in the top-up bore/rain water there is a chance of him infecting his brew unless he boils first. How high a chance? Depends on the number and type of ogranisms he is introducing, and how fast his fermentations kick off - the quicker the better I would think.

As regards copper in water, my understanding is that its not a problem on the hot-side of an all grain brew (mashing, boiling) but not on the cold-side (fermentation) of any method of brewing.

The reasoning I've read is mainly based around the use of copper vessels and copper plumbing. The time the wort is in contact with copper during mashing and boiling is not deemed sufficient for adverse levels of copper to enter the wort. And any copper that does get in is quickly scavenged by the yeast which use it as a nutrient.

The preference against using copper in fermentors or cold-side plumbing is that the fermentation itself further lowers the wort pH causing more copper to enter the beer, and the beer sits longer in the fermentor too. So copper is released into the beer at a rate faster than the yeast can consume it, and when the yeast become inactive (eg. during cold crashing) copper levels increase even more. The excess or residual copper can lead to the formation of copper sulphate in the beer which is toxic.

But the OP is not talking about using a copper fermentor, but using copper 'contaminated' water. So it all depends on the ppm of copper in his bore/rain water, and how much he can expect the yeast to consume during fermentation.

 

[bundy]

As the OP already collects Rainwater (which in most cases is pretty much as pure as you can get unless you live next door to some big industrial area) I'd suggest the easiest (and probably cheapest) way to get good clean water is to get another small Rainwater tank and collect just rainwater in that for brewing. That way there's no mixing in Borewater and you have pure fresh rainwater for your Brews. As you are extract brewing and you mentioned you are worried about any "nasties" that might be living in the rainwater, the solution to that is just boil what you need (20L or so) a day or 2 prior and that way you are guaranteed to kill off anything that might be lurcking (But as you drink it anyway day in day out, that's probably not even necessary)

So if you have the room you can get those 1000L Cubes pretty cheap e.g. $65 here http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/rosewood/miscellaneous-goods/1000l-water-pods/1099215201

1000L is a lot of Beer to make between the next time it rains to fill up your tank.

 

[drsmurto]

The 2 filters the OP has purchased will not remove the copper and iron from the water assuming they are dissolved and not particulate. Only an RO unit can do that. Standard 2 stage filters (sediment, carbon) remove sediment, bacterial contamination, chlorine and dissolved organic compound. They will not remove dissolved inorganic ions such as copper and iron and any of the brewing related ions (calcium, magnesium, sulfate, chloride).

As for whether either copper and iron will impact on your beer the answer is a definite yes. They will accelerate oxidation. From a chemistry perspective, oxygen can't react with organic compounds, it first reacts with transition metals (due to the electronic configuration of oxygen) and iron and copper are very good at it as they can redox cycle and rapidly activate the oxygen in to a compound that can react with organic compounds.

If you are going to use an RO system make sure you use a good pre-sediment filter and change it regularly.

Rainwater can be great for brewing providing you know what is in it. Bore water is generally very high in dissolved minerals but as a first step, test.

 

[RichardLavender]

Thanks DrSumrto for your information - very informative. The seller of the two filters guaranteed me that one would definitely remove copper and iron when I challenged him. I'm not crazy about investing in an RO unit due to the amount of wastewater that is generated.

I await the arrival of the drinking water test kits to evaluate the mineral content. Right now the amount of minerals is all speculation.

Your statement about oxidation is very helpful and makes things very clear. However, once brewed the beer on the shelf doesn't last very long with friends and personal consumption.

Wouldn't boiling the water for a period of time remove the minerals?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Have you made a beer from the water as is ?

It might turn out to be Ok.

 

[RichardLavender]

Hi Ducatiboy Stu - yes, as described above I went to Woolworths and purchased a can of their Draught Extract and 1Kg of Brewers sugar. I boiled 15ltrs of tank/rainwater and put together a brew.

Today, it is on its 5th day and the hydro reading is 1.005. The brew is cloudy, smells like like a beer and tastes like a beer but high in carbonation. I plan on giving it a couple more days of testing prior to bottling.

Remember having tanks results from having a combination of rainwater and bore. If the rains are minimal then the tanks are topped up with bore water.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

The brew is cloudy, smells like like a beer and tastes like a beer

You have beer then

I would do a full bore water one, but use an English Bitter recipie. English Bitters love hard water ( the same way that Pilsner loves soft water )

 

[RichardLavender]

Yep Ducatiboy Stu if it looks like a beer, tastes like a beer and smells like a beer then it is probably a beer.

This is the first brew using tank water.
Other brews have been store water and they too come out cloudy at first and settle down prior to, but most times after bottling.
I used two less ltr's for this brew to bring about a higher alcohol reading.
I suspect this is why the brew is so carbonated on day 5. I'm considering only using one carbonated drop for 730 bottle instead of two when bottling.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Have you looked at this thread

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89381-brewing-water-great-website-for-info-knowledge/

 

[drsmurto]

Thanks DrSumrto for your information - very informative. The seller of the two filters guaranteed me that one would definitely remove copper and iron when I challenged him. I'm not crazy about investing in an RO unit due to the amount of wastewater that is generated.

I await the arrival of the drinking water test kits to evaluate the mineral content. Right now the amount of minerals is all speculation.

Your statement about oxidation is very helpful and makes things very clear. However, once brewed the beer on the shelf doesn't last very long with friends and personal consumption.

Wouldn't boiling the water for a period of time remove the minerals?

The seller is telling you porky pies. One of the filters even mentions it does not remove minerals as they are good for human consumption. Possible something got lost in translation but you have bought filters that cannot remove dissolved ions, it is physically impossible to do so. Neither of the filters are anything other than over engineered, shiny, particulate filters. Not even a carbon filter. Less effective than a standard underbench filtration system and costly.

 

[RichardLavender]

Thanks Beer God - both the filters seem to do the same thing.

What's your opinion on boiling the tank water?

And about oxidation? Rarely do the brews last more than a month after aging.

 

[drsmurto]

If you drink beers that quick then oxidation is not going to be an issue. It also relies on oxygen getting in so if you avoid splashing the beer during transfers etc you'll be fine.

Boiling can help, i know of a few bore water treatment setups designed specifically to remove iron by precipitating it as the oxide (rust) before filtering.

 

[wynnum1]

I you do not know whats in bore water better to not use for drinking .Does the local government in your area have treated water bore water may be better from other bores in your area until tank fills up.Filtering tank water is probably best option.

 

[mr_wibble]

I reckon you should do a side x side test with a bottled water, bore water, and 50/50 bore+rain.
Sure the minerals might make a difference, but can anyone taste it? That's the real question.

Everything I've read says copper is a yeast nutrient.
And as you say plenty of old-world breweries still use copper boilers.

If you're concerned about using untreated rain water in a kit beer, either boil it (with some hops, Mmmm)
or use it as a prima facie evidence that you must try all-grain brewing.

And FWIW - we drink, brew and bath in collected untreated rain water.

 

[wynnum1]

Untreated rain water can also be filtered they have silver to kill bacteria the rainwater tank does anyone make an automatic cleaner like pools that could be used to remove dirt.