Bore Water contains Iron & Copper

[RichardLavender]

Water test kit arrived yesterday - reading instructions over and over again before test. Will test tomorrow and share results

 

[wynnum1]

Our government is better at covering up this would never happen in Australia.
The crisis erupted after Flint stopped receiving its water supply from the neighbouring city of Detroit due to unaffordable hikes in rates and started sourcing from the local Flint River in April 2014 as a cost-cutting temporary measure.


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/michigan-state-sued-flint-toxic-water-disaster-160115131132739.html

 

[Mardoo]

Yeah, but their water didn't contain iron and copper

 

[RichardLavender]

Here are the results of the tests I ran. The water sample was taken directly next to the bore pump and I flushed the line for over a minute. The bore pump sits 2 acres away from the tanks.

The Bacteria test I did the sample was taken from the tab in the kitchen. I flushed the line for over a minute.

I'll be interested in your comments - thanks.

Chloride = 500
Iron = 0
Copper = 0.1
Sulfate = 250
Alkalinity = 8.0
pH between = 4.0 to 5.0
Total Chlorine = 0 (as expected)
Total Hardness = 0
Nitrate = ?
Nitrite = ?
Bacteria = Positive (from tank)
Free Chlorine = 0
H2S = 0

 

[Jack of all biers]

Here are the results of the tests I ran. The water sample was taken directly next to the bore pump and I flushed the line for over a minute. The bore pump sits 2 acres away from the tanks.

The Bacteria test I did the sample was taken from the tab in the kitchen. I flushed the line for over a minute.

I'll be interested in your comments - thanks.

Chloride = 500
Iron = 0
Copper = 0.1
Sulfate = 250
Alkalinity = 8.0
pH between = 4.0 to 5.0
Total Chlorine = 0 (as expected)
Total Hardness = 0
Nitrate = ?
Nitrite = ?
Bacteria = Positive (from tank)
Free Chlorine = 0
H2S = 0

I assume your values are all mg/L? (other than the pH) If so your water is fairly soft with a CaCo3 (Alkalinity) at 8 mg/L. Even the 'soft' Melbourne water sits between 11 and 24 mg/L.

The only one that is a little high is the Chloride content that is twice the Aesthetic value of the 2004 NHMRC Guidelines which is 250 mg/L for Chloride (this is not the Health maximum, but an Aesthetic value to do with taste thresholds and appearance factors, so don't be alarmed).

Compared to Adelaide mains water you have a higher copper value (average Adelaide test results were 0.0616 mg/L between 2004 and 2009), but the 2004 NHMRC Guideline Health values for the maximum amount of copper is 2mg/L so you are doing fine there. (Melbourne sits around 0.02 mg/L)

Iron is also not a problem despite your initial concerns

Bacteria is easily dealt with and depending on which bacteria, the alcohol content and preservative effects of hops in the beer will keep most bacteria dorment. In saying that, if you are going to add filters that take out the bacteria then this is not going to be a bother. Or just boil or pasteurise at 70C prior.

Your pH value is a little acidic though. pH 4-5? Even with your soft water, I'd think that is low. I'd test that one again to make sure of your values. If your pH value is correct then depending on the pipes and tanks you use, your water may be picking up metals from the metal piping or tanks. Also from my memory, too acidic a water supply can over time soften the veins and arteries in the body, causing health problems. I'm not sure what pH level is too low though the authorities in Melbourne add Lime, caustic soda or similar to adjust their pH up to 7. Adelaide is naturally 7-8 which is why we don't have issues with pipes being eaten away by the water over time.

Instead of testing directly at the bore pump, test from where you will be sourcing your brew water (unless you are going to source it direct at the pump), because if your water is leaching metals from your pipes then your levels will be different (especially if you have copper or steel/Iron pipes with water pH values at 4-5).

EDIT - Melbourne water data for comparison http://www.melbournewater.com.au/waterdata/drinkingwaterqualitydata/Pages/drinking-water-quality.aspx
And here is a site that talks about the health risks of water pH http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water_health/health1/1-alkaline-with-water.htm
And this one that talks about average ground water pH levels (6.5-8.5) and the effects of water pH at levels <6.5 and higher metal ion capacity http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water-education/quality-water-ph-page2.htm

 

[RichardLavender]

Hi Jack - Mate you're a hero! Thank you for taking the time to review and respond.
Your info is very valuable.

You wrote: Your pH value is a little acidic though. pH 4-5? Even with your soft water, I'd think that is low. I'd test that one again to make sure of your values. If your pH value is correct then depending on the pipes and tanks you use, your water may be picking up metals from the metal piping or tanks.

You're not alone in thinking the pH is problematic. Yes the pH, directly from the bore pump gave a reading between 4.o & 5.0. My wife says I'm colour blind. I took the results outside and compared the colour coding in direct sunlight.

I ran a second pH test at the source where water would be drawn to make a brew. I found the results interesting. The tanks are currently holding a combo ot bore and rainwater. The test gave THE SAME results 4.0 to 5.0 - alkalinity 8.0 - so we're talking about the same results as the original test

I'm assuming 'acidic' will render a metallic taste in the brew? However, with my brew using tank water I boiled the water which should have reduced the metal and bacteria.

Any ways if you have further comments I know that I and others will benefit from your knowledge - thank you

 

[Jack of all biers]

You're not alone in thinking the pH is problematic. Yes the pH, directly from the bore pump gave a reading between 4.o & 5.0. My wife says I'm colour blind. I took the results outside and compared the colour coding in direct sunlight.

I ran a second pH test at the source where water would be drawn to make a brew. I found the results interesting. The tanks are currently holding a combo ot bore and rainwater. The test gave THE SAME results 4.0 to 5.0 - alkalinity 8.0 - so we're talking about the same results as the original test

I'd find a different (more accurate) pH tester to ensure it isn't a faulty pH testing set. This will ensure you can be confident (and more accurate if possible) in what your pH actually is.

I'm assuming 'acidic' will render a metallic taste in the brew? However, with my brew using tank water I boiled the water which should have reduced the metal and bacteria.

Any ways if you have further comments I know that I and others will benefit from your knowledge - thank you

No. Acidic water will not necessarily render a metallic taste in the brew. Wort and the fermented beer are acidic and the yeast will tend to balance the pH to their needs anyway. Metallic tastes are typically due to contamination in the brew by high concentrations of metallic ions (taste thresholds are typically 1-1.5mg/L), which is why the fermenting/fermented beer is best kept clear of metals, to stop it leaching them into the beer.

The problem I see with your water (forget the beer for the minute) is that if the pH is as low as 4 or 5, it may be leaching metal from your pipes/fittings/taps/pumps/rain water tanks after it has been pumped there. If any of these are metal or metal lined, then such low pH can leach the metals into the water in the form of metallic ions. This is why I suggest you do all your tests for your metal ions from the tap you will be sourcing the water for your beer. There may be higher concentrations of metals at the end of the system as opposed to the begining (and not only iron or copper depending on the metals used in your water system).

Boiling can help reduce some metal ions, but not much. I don't know what metals you have in your water system, but if your pH is actually 4-5, I'd suggest you get your water from your house tap professionally tested for heavy metals. Not for your brewing, but for your health/peace of mind.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Is there, locally, any acid sulfate soils around ?

 

[Jack of all biers]

Is there, locally, any acid sulfate soils around ?

In Queensland. Plenty. For mapping go to. https://data.qld.gov.au/dataset/acid-sulfate-soils-series/resource/19c56625-ae56-470c-b274-43a3b702d4db# If you can't get the mapping to work or live elsewhere in Australia go to https://www.environment.gov.au/water/information/acid-sulfate-soils/about-acid-sulfate-soils

I wouldn't suggest that acid sulfate soil is the OP's problem though, given his initial testing direct from the bore indicated negligible iron content and his area around Cairns is a low risk of acid sulfate occuring (5-70% chance of it occuring) but if my pH was that low, I would get a professional to test it for all the things that can cause problems in humans. Look at Flint in the US. The same pipes used, but different water supply that began leaching lead from their pipes. That is a great example of the affects water chemistry can have on your water system.

There are plenty of other reasons for acidic water other than acid sufate soil. Ancient volcanic areas is one such example that tend to have more acidic water. The Eiffel district in Germany is one such area and they make Bitburger there.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I owned 30 acers that was on acid sulphate soils. All the local bores where acidic

 

[Jack of all biers]

Richard,

I did a bit more research on water pH for you.

I ran a second pH test at the source where water would be drawn to make a brew. I found the results interesting. The tanks are currently holding a combo ot bore and rainwater. The test gave THE SAME results 4.0 to 5.0 - alkalinity 8.0 - so we're talking about the same results as the original test

When you add pure water to an acidic solution, the solution becomes less acidic and the pH goes up -- to a point. For example, if you add pure water to a relatively acidic solution that has a pH of 3.5, the pH level might go up to a 4 or 5. You cannot, though, turn an acidic solution into a base solution or make it neutral just by adding water. As a result, pure water can only raise the pH of an acidic solution to a maximum of a 6.9.

Now vinegar has a pH of 4 (or there abouts) and distilled water left open to the air disolves CO2 and creates carbonic acid reducing the pH to 6. Vinegar is 100 times more acidic that aerated distilled water. Now given your bore/tank water is showing pH 4-5, it is closer to vinegar and is not a case of being close to distilled water. I use a diluted vinegar solution to clean my copper, which brings it up shiny and new with the copper oxides dissolving into the solution. This means a water with the same pH would also be dissolving metal oxides from metal pipes into the water. So given your water is 10-100 times more acidic that distilled water, some other acid is having an affect.

Now I am just surmising here as your tests don't show what types of chlorides you have in your water, but given you have a higher than normal level of chlorides (500 mg/L), it may have something to do with that. This is because lots of chlorides, such as Magnesium chloride, MgCl2 form acids when dissolved in water. I have no idea what chlorides would naturally be found in the ground near you that would get into your water, but my money would be on the chlorides being the culprit for your lower pH. Sulfates also have negligible effects on lowering pH so it may be a combo. Your 250 mg/L level of sulfates is fine though so I'd be leaning more towards the chlorides.

I found a NSW government paper that states you can drink water at pH 5 with no ill effects, but water with a pH less than 6 indicates corrosiveness, which can lead to damage to metal pipes, tanks and fittings. If you're a farmer the paper is definately worth a read http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/164101/Farm-water-quality-and-treatment.pdf

EDIT - In short, if your water test values are accurate and you have mostly plastic piping, tanks and fittings for your water supply, your bore/tank water will be fine to add to your brews. As I said above, if it were me I'd get the water from the house tap tested by a pro for peace of mind.

 

[RichardLavender]

Thanks guys for your information - again my head is spinning and will read over the offered info more than once.

Jack what confuses me is your last comments that the water will be fine to add to your brews but if it were you you'd get the house tap tested.

You also had mentioned health issues that could occur from the water. If there are possible health issues then how can brewing with the water be safe.

The argument amongst the family here is that we've lived here for 17 years and we've not experienced health issues.
The other argument is that the house and piping is 21 years old and there are no signs of damage or faulty piping.

* * *

BTW I don't create the wort I am an extract brewer currently. The only time I have had issue with a poor batch is when I use Dextrose or brewing sugar and house water. All other brews have used Coopers Heritage Lager and Coopers Light Malt Extract with store water & Pride of Ringwood Hops.

Is it possible that Dextrose and or brewing sugar can cause a funny taste and after taste to the brew?
If so, then it is possible that the water can be the lesser of the variables for the poor result.

However I have thought seriously about investing in the following system

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251885340002?euid=a645ad970e444280aefb6343b1b548c2&cp=1

Others state I should spend close to a $1000.00 and filter at the tanks to control the health and corrosive piping issues.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

When I had my farm I put a large 1micron filter ( was the 2ft, 4" ) on my tanks at the pump. Was going to put a carbon filter under the sink, but considering neither my kids or myself died, I didnt bother

 

[wynnum1]

Radon gas is another thing to look at .

 

[Jack of all biers]

EDIT - In short, if your water test values are accurate and you have mostly plastic piping, tanks and fittings for your water supply, your bore/tank water will be fine to add to your brews. As I said above, if it were me I'd get the water from the house tap tested by a pro for peace of mind.

I probably should have underlined the IF & AND parts of the sentence. I can see how I confused.

The main reason I would get a professional to test it would be for peace of mind due to the vague data and doubt your preliminary test seems to show. A professional water test should be able to give you pH to a decimal point and accurate readings of all heavy metal ions including nasties such as lead, chromium etc.

• The main question is how accurate is your testing kit? A pH reading of between 4-5 is not accurate as the difference is 10 fold. It's a good guide, but makes me question how accurate the rest of the testing kit is. This is what makes me think a re-test with a better pH tester may be required. If for example it showed a pH of 6 or higher then I'd be comfortable that your water wouldn't be leaching metals from your system.
• What metals can your testing kit test for? IF your pH value is 4 or 5, then you are at risk of picking up amounts of lead from brass fittings for example. Zinc or Alumium are also commonly found in rainwater tanks.

What I meant by being fine for brewing was that IF your low metal readings are accurate AND taken from your tap read the SAME, AND you are happy your testing kit is accurate then it is fine in the brew. I'm talking about the content of the minerals and ions you showed in your data above. The pH of 4 or 5 won't be an issue for brewing (AG or FWK/Kit&Kilo).

The argument amongst the family here is that we've lived here for 17 years and we've not experienced health issues.
The other argument is that the house and piping is 21 years old and there are no signs of damage or faulty piping.

21 year old piping is not old at all, but old enough that IF your pH was 4 or 5, I'd expect you would have seen some corrosion staining in sinks, from your washing machine or on the ends of taps. IF there is no staining it would be another thing indicating the inaccuracy of your testing kit.

You still haven't stated what materials you have in your water system? Do you know the all the materials the tanks/piping and fittings are made of?

BTW I don't create the wort I am an extract brewer currently. The only time I have had issue with a poor batch is when I use Dextrose or brewing sugar and house water. All other brews have used Coopers Heritage Lager and Coopers Light Malt Extract with store water & Pride of Ringwood Hops.

Is it possible that Dextrose and or brewing sugar can cause a funny taste and after taste to the brew?
If so, then it is possible that the water can be the lesser of the variables for the poor result.

There are so many variables for the above scenario. In short yes it is possible dextrose or brewing sugar can cause funny taste in the brew far above that of the water added. BUT, you have submitted a question about high Iron and Copper content in your water (you obviously thought this was the case for some reason), but when you did your testing it resulted in low levels. Again you have more of the answers than we do.

Maybe to rule out the funny taste factor, you should do two brews. One with the Coopers Lager and Malt extract and Pride of Ringwood as per your usual method except use your house water instead of store water. Next do a brew using dextrose or brewing sugar and store water instead of house water. Taste the two brews. You will quickly find the common denominator.

However I have thought seriously about investing in the following system

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251885340002?euid=a645ad970e444280aefb6343b1b548c2&cp=1

Others state I should spend close to a $1000.00 and filter at the tanks to control the health and corrosive piping issues.

The linked system appears to reduce bacteria, but won't help with corrosive pH or metal ions in the water. I grew up on rain water, which for most of my life wasn't filtered. When Dad did put in a filter it was only a one similar to what Ducati boy Stu did to his tank.

$1000 filter at the tanks? Prior to the tanks surely as corrosive piping issues are also corrosive tank issues (assuming you have metal tanks?) $1000 is a lot of money to spend when you might not have a problem with corrosiveness. This is another reason to get a professional report on your water. You will have all the facts then and probably some professional advice as to how you can over come any issues if they are infact discovered.

 

[RichardLavender]

Radon gas! Great. I wondered why my wife and I glowed in bed at night. Wynnum1 I suspect you're being serious.

No one is ill and guests have never complained from becoming sick from the water I can't imagine that this is going to be an issue now.

My whole agenda was to reduce my cost in brewing by using tank water. This water issue could become a costly venture. A professional water test here in Cairns can cost over $350.00. We are on a limited budget. I contend it's either the water or the use of brewing sugar instead of canned light malt extract that is causing the aftertaste of the brew. As noted before the ONLY time I experience this type of taste is when I have brewed with the tank water and brewing sugar or dextrose.

 

[RichardLavender]

Hi Jack - here are some answers and considerations

You wrote:
A pH reading of between 4-5 is not accurate as the difference is 10 fold. It's a good guide, but makes me question how accurate the rest of the testing kit is.

Or, how good my eyes are at deciphering colour differences. My wife tells me I'm colour blind. To me the pH test looked closer to 5.0 on both tests but was reluctant to commit to the test result and offered the two for consideration. I understand you statement of 10 fold and 10%

You wrote:
What metals can your testing kit test for?

The two metals it tested for was iron and copper - the results reflected 0 for iron and 0.1 for copper - note there was no question of the colour test result - it was clear

You wrote:
I'd expect you would have seen some corrosion staining in sinks or on the ends of taps.

In my above comments I have noted that there are copper stains in the toilet bowls - there is no evidence of corrosion on the water fixtures.


You wrote:

You still haven't stated what materials you have in your water system? Do you know the all the materials the tanks/piping and fittings are made of?

Apologies - the tanks are poly and the piping from the tanks leading into the house system is plastics - I suspect there is copper in the plumbing of the house because the two lines that lead from the floor of the garage where I am having a sink installed are copper.

You wrote:
you have submitted a question about high Iron and Copper content in your water (you obviously thought this was the case for some reason),

Yes, I did because a local brewer who owns a pool supply and service company stated that he believed that my pH would be high along with high mineral such as copper and iron. His comment opened the discussion and prior to purchasing a test kit.


You wrote:
Maybe to rule out the funny taste factor, you should do two brews. One with the Coopers Lager and Malt extract and Pride of Ringwood as per your usual method except use your house water instead of store water. Next do a brew using dextrose or brewing sugar and store water instead of house water. Taste the two brews. You will quickly find the common denominator.

I agree and will proceed


You wrote:
The linked system appears to reduce bacteria, but won't help with corrosive pH or metal ions in the water. I grew up on rain water, which for most of my life wasn't filtered.

So the system isn't 100% of what I need - I need to focus on a filter system that can reduce bacteria, pH and metal ions - here I go again reviewing the options.

Thank you again for your willingness to participate in this discussion

 

[wynnum1]

Radon gas! Great. I wondered why my wife and I glowed in bed at night. Wynnum1 I suspect you're being serious.

No one is ill and guests have never complained from becoming sick from the water I can't imagine that this is going to be an issue now.

My whole agenda was to reduce my cost in brewing by using tank water. This water issue could become a costly venture. A professional water test here in Cairns can cost over $350.00. We are on a limited budget. I contend it's either the water or the use of brewing sugar instead of canned light malt extract that is causing the aftertaste of the brew. As noted before the ONLY time I experience this type of taste is when I have brewed with the tank water and brewing sugar or dextrose.
$60 US to do a complete test in US look for a cheaper option for testing.
http://soilplantlab.missouri.edu/soil/testfees.aspx

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Your local council "should" be able to do the test for you, after all it is a public health thing so you may have to push the point.

Rain water is awesome for brewing as it tends to be soft and neutral ( although some say you it gets a bit acidic from carbolic acid formed as the rain falls thru the atmosphere ) and is a great base to work off as you can make it soft or hard depending on what style you want.

I did an English bitter with rainwater and gypsum & epsom salts and you could definitely taste the difference in the beers from when I brewed straight rain water. Had a definite mineral edge top to it.

Just dont use to much of either in your water or you could end up with very runny poo

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

This is what i had on my tank