Bore Water contains Iron & Copper

[RichardLavender]

The local council does not do drinking water tests. One can 'push' all they want ...it won't make a difference. The Douglas Shire Council supplies the containers that are to be delivered to the Cairns Council labs. The labs have a variety to tests available. The cost of the test that would address ALL of the variables / categories that we've discussed costs $350.00.

The link above supplied for a 'cheaper test' is a lab in the states. That is not an option but thank you for your consideration and suggestion.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Thats a shame they charge so much.

I know here I have taken in a tank water sample and they just did it. ( was a couple of years back ).

 

[Jack of all biers]

Ducatiboy Stu - my dad put on two of those. I think one was a carbon filter the other a sediment filter. With you 100% on using rainwater. The lower pH is similar to distilled water and probably sits at 6.5 to 7. Anyway the level of pH for brewing water is not a significant thing especially for kit and kilo.

However I have thought seriously about investing in the following system

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251885340002?euid=a645ad970e444280aefb6343b1b548c2&cp=1

If you seriously thought about getting the above system for $340, then why wouldn't you pay the council $350 to give you an accurate result of all the things in your water that you drink. It is a better investment in my opinion as the test results may come back that you don't need to add any filtration at all. If you fork out $350 and you do find that there is something in the water that could harm you then it's an even better investment because then you can make a change. I would look at the local council above the US as the currency conversion fees, postal fees etc start to mount up and at least with the local council you should be able to talk to someone about the results whereas the US does not interpret them for you.

You wrote:
What metals can your testing kit test for?

The two metals it tested for was iron and copper - the results reflected 0 for iron and 0.1 for copper - note there was no question of the colour test result - it was clear

You wrote:
I'd expect you would have seen some corrosion staining in sinks or on the ends of taps.

In my above comments I have noted that there are copper stains in the toilet bowls - there is no evidence of corrosion on the water fixtures.

Missed your copper stains inthe toilet bowls comment sorry. This indicates to me that your pH test is roughly correct. Again for brewing the copper and iron levels are fine. I'm concerned that a low pH water has leached other metals into it that might be of concern for you. I understand that you have been drinking the water for 17 years to no ill effect, but I'll put this to you - people who went out in the sun everyday for years without sun protection had no ill effects until they developed skin cancer - many smokers say the same thing until they develop cancer - Asbestos, need I say more. Some things just creep up on us and those things include heavy metal poisoning.

Apologies - the tanks are poly and the piping from the tanks leading into the house system is plastics - I suspect there is copper in the plumbing of the house because the two lines that lead from the floor of the garage where I am having a sink installed are copper.

The poly system is good news in so far as the low pH of your water. You are getting some copper leaching from your pipes though which does indicate maybe your pH test isn't way off. A little bit of copper corrosion is not a worry as long as your tests show it to be under the health guideline limit of 2 mg/L. My house has had copper piping since 1988 when it was redone. This is 20 metres from the meter to the house, plus all the piping within the house and another 20 metres beyond to a garden tap. 28 years and no copper stains in the toilet or anywhere else. This is the difference between pH 7.5-8 (adelaide average) and your lower pH of 4-5.

Yes, I did because a local brewer who owns a pool supply and service company stated that he believed that my pH would be high along with high mineral such as copper and iron. His comment opened the discussion and prior to purchasing a test kit.

Go back to this guy if you can and pump him for more info on why he believed your pH and mineral content would be high. Given your tests indicate the exact opposite, he may have a lot of anecdotal info that would give you a better picture of water averages in your area.

You wrote:
The linked system appears to reduce bacteria, but won't help with corrosive pH or metal ions in the water. I grew up on rain water, which for most of my life wasn't filtered.

So the system isn't 100% of what I need - I need to focus on a filter system that can reduce bacteria, pH and metal ions - here I go again reviewing the options.

Thank you again for your willingness to participate in this discussion

I think before you get any system to filter anything you need accurate info, hence my above comment about forking out the $350 as an investment. Filtering metal ions will be expensive (see previous comments by Dr Smurto) and you can't change the pH by use of a filter. Adjusting the pH requires chemical addition such as soda ash (sodium carbonate) or similar. This would require a lot of time and thought to do your whole water system just to stop corrosion of some copper pipes.

My final comments on the matter - Rain water fine, bore water test for heavy metals. The heavy metals won't necessarily effect your beer, but they will affect you. If you find they are not there then you probably don't need any filtration system at all given the bacteria has not caused you a bother in 17 years.

 

[wobbly]

If you have to/are going to fork out $350 dollars for a water analysis you could post a 600ml sample to these guys http://mpl.com.au/ in Perth and they would do a detailed analysis pH, Sodium, Calcium, Magnesium, Sulphate, Bicarbonate, Total Alkalinity, Chloride, Total Hardness Ecolli, Cadmium, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Lead and Nitrate, for $172 and I'm sure that there are similar testing laboratories closer to you that will not charge you the $350

Once you know your water details and you are still considering the need to "filter/treat" it you could do a lot worse than getting in touch with Peter Howard at PSI Filers http://www.psifilters.com.au/contact-us and get one of these http://www.psifilters.com.au/laundry-wall-mount-reverse-osmosis-systems/10048-psi-020b-lw-3-stage-reverse-osmosis-system-low-waste-1-to-1.html for $230 delivered (It's what I am considering) According to Peter the unit has a very low treated water to waist of 1:1.25

I have no affiliation just passing on info

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I would get a proper analysis done before making any decisions. Then work out what you need to do and spend money in

I would use the mob in Wobbly's post. Just looking at what they do tells you a lot.

MPL Laboratories provides water testing results for:

Groundwater

Drinking water

Borehole water

Freshwater

Irrigation water

Estuarine and Marine water

Surface water

Bottled water

Saline water

Effluent

Waste water

Landfill leachate

Cooling water

Chelex Bioavailable metals


Analysis includes:

Physico-chemical parameters
colour, turbidity, acidity, alkalinity, hardness, pH and conductivity, salinity, suspended and dissolved solids.

Cations
Sodium, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium

Anions
Bromide, Chloride, Fluoride, Nitrate, Nitrite, Phosphate, Sulfate

Nutrients
Total Phosphorus and Ortho-Phosphate, Total Nitrogen, Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, Kjeldahl Nitrogen

Trace elements
Arsenic, Cadmium, Chromium, Copper, Mercury, Lead, Nickel, Zinc

Trace organics
TPH, BTEX, VOC, SVOC, PAHs, OC/OP/PCBs, Speciated Phenols, GC/MS scans for unknowns

Aggregate organics
BOD5, COD, oil and grease, surfactants, TOC

Microorganisms
Total plate counts, thermotolerant coliforms, E.coli, algal counts and identification (cyanobacteria), Legionella species and other pathogens (Salmonella).

Chelex Bioavailable Metals
In water quality monitoring for ecosystem protection, or where water quality is affected by the presence of trace metals, the Bioavailability of said metal, not just the concentration of elements in the dissolved phase, can be critical in the assessment of toxicity. For more information refer to: Chelex Bioavailable Metals in natural water.pdf.

 

[wobbly]

Here's a link to the Brisbane associate "enviolab" http://envirolab.com.au/brisbane/

Give them a call and see what they can offer you. All it will cost is the price of a phone call.

Wobbly

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Local business here sell these 4.5" x 20" kits for a reasonable price

https://www.clarencewaterfilters.com.au/product/20-big-blue-high-flow-rate-water-filter-housing/

 

[Mr B]

If you are only using RO for brewing, just recirculate the waste back into the tank? It wont be much and considering the dilution volume shouldnt affect the relative levels?

 

[wynnum1]

The water test price in States was to show that water tests do not cost $350 and also with more tests there is a discount so what is the cheapest test in Australia.

 

[RichardLavender]

EVERYONE A BIG THANK YOU - so much advice and willingness to be helpful - you guys are great.
While this conversation has been going on I also have had another one of similar degree with a filter company where they suggested the following system - not what it discusses about pH - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Twin-Undersink-Water-Filter-System-Ultraviolet-Light-pH-Neutraliser-/252242135979?hash=item3abacd8bab

Here is there latest comments about my testing and their concerns ... which are shared by many of you


G'day , yes rain water can also be acidic, and given the tanks are poly then it's quite possible that the pH could remain low from the bore and the rain water.
Given that it's so low, I'm surprised that you are not seeing signs of copper leaching in the house.
This presents it's self as green / blue stains, on or around the water fixtures.
If you are seeing this then we do have a problem to deal with , and if you are not, then you must either not have copper pipes or the test strips are not reading accurately, (check use by dates)

Low pH is caused by Co2 (carbon Dioxide) being absorbed into the water which is what all the fuss is about the green house gasses leaching into the atmosphere.
It's not a difficult thing to fix but we need to confirm if the pH reading are accurate.
Assuming you don't see copper leaching , or you are not concerned about the rest of the house, we could offer you this filter system that has a calcite neutralizer filter to lift the pH back to neutral then through a UV system to take care of the bacteria..
See this link, I believe it may solve your problems, at least for the brewing and drinking water,

 

[Jack of all biers]

I agree with Wobbly and co, there is definately cheaper water test pricing within Aus and likely within the Cairns/Nth Qld area.

While this conversation has been going on I also have had another one of similar degree with a filter company where they suggested the following system - not what it discusses about pH - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Twin-Undersink-Water-Filter-System-Ultraviolet-Light-pH-Neutraliser-/252242135979?hash=item3abacd8bab

Here is there latest comments about my testing and their concerns ... which are shared by many of you

G'day , yes rain water can also be acidic, and given the tanks are poly then it's quite possible that the pH could remain low from the bore and the rain water.
Given that it's so low, I'm surprised that you are not seeing signs of copper leaching in the house.
This presents it's self as green / blue stains, on or around the water fixtures.
If you are seeing this then we do have a problem to deal with , and if you are not, then you must either not have copper pipes or the test strips are not reading accurately, (check use by dates)

Just a word of caution. When someone who is trying to sell you something tells you that Low pH is caused by CO2 being absorbed into the water they are talking about carbonic acid and whilst it is true, it's only partially true for your circumstances. Rain water when it falls from the sky can get as low as pH 5.6 from reaction with CO2 and if under perfect circumstances of perfectly clean colourbond roof, perfectly clean gutters and perfectly clean poly tanks can remain at 5.6 within the tank. Galv roofing, dirt, dust, leaves, exposure to concrete tanks etc allow the water pH to balance out closer to 7 (neutral). Here is another seller of a similar product with info about it http://www.pristinewatersystems.com.au/calcite-filters/ Notice how the information is slanted toward rain water not bore water.

So, whilst true for rain water held in poly tanks, you have the other issue of low pH bore water. The ground water is exposed to all the things in the ground where it has been for countless years. Depending on the make up of the ground the water passes through and sits in depends on the mineral content and pH factors. The acids that are caused in this process can be quite different to Carbonic acid. Also during this exposure under ground the acids allow the pick up of metal ions. The make up of which metals depends on the ground the water has passed through. The water also picks up other minerals and chemicals in this millennia long process until you suck it up out of the ground.

Neutrilizing the pH after the bore water has been tanked and prior to it flowing through your copper pipes will stop the corrosion of the copper pipes in your house, but won't effect what metal ions are already in your bore water. I'd suggest you follow their advice about checking the correctness of your initial pH tests. I'd also reiterate that you talk to the other brewer/swimming pool guy in your area. He may have had many tests done or know of those who have in your local area. They might be able to indicate to you what other things are in the ground water in your area.

You seem like a guy who likes to do his research before making a decision and I commend that (reminds me of me). Many of the guys here have suggested some fairly low price water testing (cheaper than the filters you have considered), the results of which may end with you not buying a filtration system at all. I

Some more info if you do consider further testing:

If money is an issue (Ha, when is it not an issue ) and you're thinking of the do-it-yourself water kits (I know you have already tested with one type), this test kit is specifically for bore water http://www.testkits.com.au/tank-well-bore-water-test-kit/ but it doesn't test for all metals and at $98 you are getting a guide and not accurate results. The same site has a metal test kit for another $38 which tests for most of the concerning metals, but it combines all metals into one result (not helpful really) and doesn't indicate the presence of arsenic (arsenic test costs $280). The do-it-yourself tests, if you bought them all to check everything, would cost you far more than the price your council quotes and you still wouldn't have accurate data to make a decision on. Some of the professional water tests quoted by others are not much more expensive than the bore water test kit alone. Matter for yourself of course.

A couple of local/accredited water testers you could obtain quotes from to compare prices on:
http://nata.com.au/nata/component/jumi/scopeinfo?key=14197 likely who your Pt Douglas Council go through for their tests.
http://www.measurement.gov.au/Services/FoodTesting/Pages/Drinking-Water.aspx Commonwealth Government tests - Online form or email to obtain a quote
https://www.townsville.qld.gov.au/water-waste-and-environment/water-testing-services - would require the sample to arrive and be processed within 24 hrs (you'll find this a requirement of all accredited water testing to do with reliability of bacteria results).

I couldn't find any independant testers in your local area, but Google or word of mouth may be your friend for further price comparisons. Like in all things though, cheapest or most expensive don't necessarily equal best.

 

[RichardLavender]

Thanks Jack - you're a hero

Here is the last comments and suggestion from the water filter 'sales person'. His solution is way outside of our budget and I know the argument is that it is cheaper than replacing all the pipes within the house.

I feel like such a yo yo

Ok , I'm pretty sure the pH will be responsible for most if not all of your problems, given what I've learnt about your situation.
The calcite filter will raise the pH to about 7.2 which would be perfect.
having said that , the pH will probably higher initially until the calcium fines are all dissolved, this could be a few days.
Your wife being itchy after showering would ordinarily be associated with alkaline water rather than acid, but one though may be that the acid water could be removing the oils from the skin leaving the skin dry, have here try some moisturizer after the shower, and let me know what happens.

The calcite filter is basically a sacrificial anode that the acid water takes it's aggression out on before it researched the copper pipes.
The water dissolves small amounts of calcium into the water which raises the pH and stops the water being aggressive on pipes and fixtures.

One thing I do know, is that the pump kicking in and out during the night is an indication of a leak somewhere in the system , so you need to find that as well. Also check the pressure bladder on the pump it's self before looking for more sinister things.

Here's the link to the filter system you need

https://www.filtersystemsaustralia.com/store/index.php/whole-house-calcite-filter-ph-neutralisation.html

 

[Jack of all biers]

Hmm. Sorry that your original beer related question has turned into an expensive exercise. I guess the old wifes had it right - A stich in time saves nine. I don't know what your rain water collection/storage capacity is, but if you can get away with it, could you stop using the bore water? (even in the short term?) The pH of the rain water will be a lot higher without the bore water being added and will buy you some 'Money saving time'. The filter your bloke suggested is the same as the site I linked above. See if they are any cheaper? If your wife is getting itchy from the water, it may not have anything to do with the pH (or it might too), but it might have something to do with what else is in the water. Seriously I know I sound like a broken record here, but FOR YOUR AND YOUR FAMILIES HEALTH, GET YOUR WATER TESTED BY A PRO. It MAY make you stop using your bore water for drinking showering etc. It might not, but if you already have a leaking water system (possibly given your pump is working O/T) think not on the one off expenses of water test or pH neutralizers, but think on the expense of re-piping your house plumbing and changing your pumps because the metal parts are eaten away. That expense goes way beyond the $1000-$1500 a test and pH neutalizer combo will cost you.

EDIT - Spelling and grammar (I'm on my second Bock for the night :chug:

 

[RichardLavender]

Hmm. Sorry that your original beer related question has turned into an expensive exercise. I guess the old wifes had it right - A stich in time saves nine. I don't know what your rain water collection/storage capacity is, but if you can get away with it, could you stop using the bore water? (even in the short term?) The pH of the rain water will be a lot higher without the bore water being added and will buy you some 'Money saving time'. The filter your bloke suggested is the same as the site I linked above. See if they are any cheaper? If your wife is getting itchy from the water, it may not have anything to do with the pH (or it might too), but it might have something to do with what else is in the water. Seriously I know I sound like a broken record here, but FOR YOUR AND YOUR FAMILIES HEALTH, GET YOUR WATER TESTED BY A PRO. It MAY make you stop using your bore water for drinking showering etc. It might not, but if you already have a leaking water system (possibly given your pump is working O/T) think not on the one off expenses of water test or pH neutralizers, but think on the expense of re-piping your house plumbing and changing your pumps because the metal parts are eaten away. That expense goes way beyond the $1000-$1500 a test and pH neutalizer combo will cost you.

EDIT - Spelling and grammar (I'm on my second Bock for the night :chug:

Hi and thanks for your reply and information - Being on the outskirts of Port Douglas - rural area we do not have the pleasure of town water - as with any region the rains come and go - foregoing the use of bore water is not an option.

Plus, as noted in these posts - currently the tank water is 100% rain - especially after last night's downpour - and the water from the tanks and the bore are rendering the same pH reading. 4.0 or 5.0 depending on my eyesight and colour distinction - sorry my wife says I'm colour blind.

Today I'm going to prepare to brews with the following

Coopers Aussie Pale Ale
Coopers Light Malt Extract (can)
Galaxy Hops (fresh flowers)
S 04 yeast

In one batch I'll use store purchase water. In the other I have boiled 25ltr's of tank water. Obviously the only difference in the brew will be the water.

Tomorrow I'm going to go to the pool shop to talk to the brewer/owner and discuss his speculations about my water. I'm also going to ask to have my tank water tested with his computer system that can read pH, minerals (not specific listing - just high or low) and something else I can't remember. My focus will be on the pH

 

[wynnum1]

You need more rain water storage the big tank is too big to act as prime source for water a smaller tank can be emptied and when rains fresh rain water or if no rain treat and filter the water from big tank into the smaller tank.The pool shop is the best bet when a pool is let go they clean it up and make safe. .

 

[RichardLavender]

We have two 15k ltr tanks

The pool company was to have a pH test done - if I'm not mistake regardless that the water sample came from the pool or the tap the pH can be tested and render a result

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I had 2 x 20,000lt and 1 x 30,000ltr all linked together with taps so I could switch over easly.

 

[Lager Bloke]

Hi Richard,don't know if you have already been in contact with them -try rural pump/irrigation businesses in the area.May be a cheaper option for the test cost and also another source of info on water in the area.Rob.

 

[RichardLavender]

Hi Rob - Yes a company in Craiglie - they send the test samples to the same lab in Cairns and add an additional 15% for the service.

Thanks for the idea anyways.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Plus, as noted in these posts - currently the tank water is 100% rain - especially after last night's downpour - and the water from the tanks and the bore are rendering the same pH reading. 4.0 or 5.0 depending on my eyesight and colour distinction - sorry my wife says I'm colour blind.

Re the Rain water only.
Do you have a lot of trees around your gutters? Any pine trees? pH as low as 4 or 5 is in the acid rain bracket. If it was 5 then maybe you have a build up of organic material in the tanks which break down and produce acids (citric acid being one). Pine needles are especially acidic. A tank clean should reduce this problem (if it exists).

You could add calcium carbonate or sodium carbonate direct to your tanks that will react with the acids bringing the pH up. This is a short term solution in that if you get the 'dose' right for the full tanks, you will have to repeat periodically as the pH lowers again due to refilling from rains. Adding sodium carbonate has it's own compounding problems over time though due to an increase in sodium content in the water. With calcium carbonate you will notice small amounts of lime scale and if you overdo it large amounts of lime scale.

Calcite is a pure form of calcium carbonate so the pH stabilizer you looked at would do the same thing. Calcium carbonate should be easy enough to acquire from a chemical supply company.

Let us know how your brews go.