BIAB Excessive Trub

[Stieger82]

Hi,

I have recently gone from a 3 vessel system to a BIAB setup and have a lot of trub which is increasing my losses.

I am losing about 3.5L of wort due to the trub meaning i am having to add extra water at the beginning to account for the losses.

I am using a stainless steel hop basket, stirring the grain every 15 minutes during the mash and continuosly during the mashout.

Any ideas to reduce the true losses or do you use a strainer as it drains into the fermenter?

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[wereprawn]

There's an interesting post by Bribie G on here somewhere, on the subject.

One thing I don't do is stir my mash again once its had a good mix at mash in. I've tried stirring a couple of times during the mash and just end up with a lot more trub and zero efficiency gain.

 

[Bribie G]

Do a very gentle lift to form a grain bed.

I don't bother with mashout any more, or even a step mash with vigorous stirring of the grain, because the enzymes are in the wort anyway and will clean up any remaining starches as you ramp up to boiling.

Also a lot of trub is from hop materials such as pellets. Instead of chucking in hops commando style, I use a hop "swimming pool" made from a grain or paint strainer bag pegged around the edge of the urn.

These bags trap nearly all the vegetal stuff.

 

[MHB]

What wereprawn said.
Because people doing BIAB tend to mill finer and aren't recirculating they tend to get a lot more grain flour in the boil, apart from the trub loss it is possible that the wort will foam a lot more during the boil, could even reduce the bitterness a bit as Alpha Acids and Iso-Alpha's stick to everything.

Finer bag, coarser grist, not squeezing the bag, less stirring and any other steps that reduce the amount of crud getting out of the bag and into the wort, will all help.
Bribies slow lifting is in essence doing just that, the fines get caught up in the grist, rather than running through and into the kettle. You might even (depending on the design of your kettle) be able to syphon/decant the tun bottoms off before the boil and get rid of the fines be allowing them to settle slowly before adding the wort back to the kettle. Or even carefully recirculating them through the grist to filter them out.

I find trying to clarify boiled wort less than effective, better to start with a clearer wort at the start of the boil.
Mark

 

[Matplat]

Or, modify your system to a malt pipe with recirculation.....

I love it when I look into the malt pipe and I can see the top of the grain bed clear as beneath 5cm of wort... makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and satisfied

 

[Stieger82]

Thanks for the replies.

I was toying with the idea of a magnetic drive pump to recirculate. I definitely think the less I move the grain bag or hop spider the better. I like the idea of circulating the wort back through the grain, I was also contemplating circulating the wort during the chill and feeding it back slowly into the hop spider? I use Brewers Friend and struggle a bit with the efficiency calculation. I seem to be sitting around 60% but if i am able to reduce the trub losses it will enable me to reduce the initial water required. Currently I'm at 33L to get 22L into Fermentor. It would be nice to get the trub loss down to 1L which would enable me to use approx 30L.

I don't want to complicate things to much hence my decision to BIAB.

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[manticle]

Stop stirring and mill a bit coarser. Let the wort settle a bit before draining to kettle.

 

[Stieger82]

Malt Pipe?

To clarify, I have a 50L keg with a pipe and tap welded in the lowest point underneath the keg. I have a false bottom installed over this pipe. I also have an electric element Installed thorough the side and another false bottom concealing the element. It is insulated with 1Inch Armorflex and maintains a temp within 1 deg over 1 hour without using the element.

 

[Stieger82]

Or, modify your system to a malt pipe with recirculation.....

I love it when I look into the malt pipe and I can see the top of the grain bed clear as beneath 5cm of wort... makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and satisfied

What do you mean by malt pipe?

My mash tun is my kettle BTW.

Cheers Ryan

 

[Stieger82]

What wereprawn said.
Because people doing BIAB tend to mill finer and aren't recirculating they tend to get a lot more grain flour in the boil, apart from the trub loss it is possible that the wort will foam a lot more during the boil, could even reduce the bitterness a bit as Alpha Acids and Iso-Alpha's stick to everything.

Finer bag, coarser grist, not squeezing the bag, less stirring and any other steps that reduce the amount of crud getting out of the bag and into the wort, will all help.
Bribies slow lifting is in essence doing just that, the fines get caught up in the grist, rather than running through and into the kettle. You might even (depending on the design of your kettle) be able to syphon/decant the tun bottoms off before the boil and get rid of the fines be allowing them to settle slowly before adding the wort back to the kettle. Or even carefully recirculating them through the grist to filter them out.

I find trying to clarify boiled wort less than effective, better to start with a clearer wort at the start of the boil.
Mark

Maybe I'm confused but my mash tun is my kettle?

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[wereprawn]

What do you mean by malt pipe?

My mash tun is my kettle BTW.

Cheers Ryan

Think of a large / long stainless pot with small holes/thin cuts in the bottom which will fit inside your keg and can be lifted out.

 

[MHB]

When you are mashing in it, it's a mash tun, when you are boiling in it, it's a kettle.
Yes it is doing both jobs, using different terms based on the process is just to highlight parts of that process and what they can contribute to the trub later.

We really don't have a term for a single vessel brewery, well not one as well understood ad Mash Tun, Lauter Tun, Kettle, Copper, Hop Back, Whirlpool vessel...
I'm sure we will settle on one someday.
Mark

 

[Stieger82]

Think of a large / long stainless pot with small holes/thin cuts in the bottom which will fit inside your keg and can be lifted out.

Ok, similar to what is used it a grainfather?

Any ideas where to get one from?

Cheers, Ryan

 

[wereprawn]

Ok, similar to what is used it a grainfather?

Any ideas where to get one from?

Cheers, Ryan

Exactly like the grainfather. Have a sqiz at what the site sponsors have on offer mate.

 

[DUANNE]

my solution while i was doing biab was to do a bigger batch. if i wanted to do a 20 litre batch i would brew a 25 litre batch so the trub could all be left behind and cost wise it is bugger all to nothing. you could use a pump to pump over the mash to help clarify but by then you might as well just use your 3v system imo. biab is a bit of a trade off you will save time and clean less but will lose efficiency and spend slightly more in ingredients.

 

[wereprawn]

my solution while i was doing biab was to do a bigger batch. if i wanted to do a 20 litre batch i would brew a 25 litre batch so the trub could all be left behind and cost wise it is bugger all to nothing. you could use a pump to pump over the mash to help clarify but by then you might as well just use your 3v system imo. biab is a bit of a trade off you will save time and clean less but will lose efficiency and spend slightly more in ingredients.

Low efficiency isn't a problem with biab. The same factors which 3v brewers encounter relating to efficiency are experienced by biabers - crush, water, temps ect. If anything , there are extra complicating factors relating to possible efficiency problems with a 3v system IMHO.

 

[Bribie G]

At a Systems Wars back in 2011 or whenever for the Brisbane Conference, held at Bacchus we did the same recipe on BIAB, Ghetto, 3V and Braumeister.

Independent monitors took samples and refracted mercilessly with all systems coming in at about the same efficiency (around 73% IIRC).

We couldn't get in a HERMS for the day as all semi trailers were booked out for the weekend. h34r: h34r: h34r: h34r:

 

[DUANNE]

extract efficiency is one thing but overall efficiency into the fermenter is another. given 73% extract efficiency but one system leaves 1 litre of trub at the bottom of the boiler and another leaves 3 litres of trub overall efficiency is affected. 20 litres of 1054 wort compared to 18 litres of 1054 wort for the same amount of grain. that also means more hops added during the boil to make up for whats left behind as well which is a further expense or loss in efficiency. im in no way knocking biab im certain the beer at the end will taste the same but there is a price to pay for the simplicity and ease on brewday however small.

 

[Stieger82]

Thanks for all the input.

I am compensating for the losses by adding extra water/grain/hops to get what i need. I was after a way i could limit this as it is extra cost but hey i brew hoppy beers so no matter what Its gonna be pricey. Its my hobby so money isn't everything.

I have a few ideas from your comments, first i might by a pump a re-circ.

Ill let you know how i go.

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[Bribie G]

extract efficiency is one thing but overall efficiency into the fermenter is another. given 73% extract efficiency but one system leaves 1 litre of trub at the bottom of the boiler and another leaves 3 litres of trub overall efficiency is affected. 20 litres of 1054 wort compared to 18 litres of 1054 wort for the same amount of grain. that also means more hops added during the boil to make up for whats left behind as well which is a further expense or loss in efficiency. im in no way knocking biab im certain the beer at the end will taste the same but there is a price to pay for the simplicity and ease on brewday however small.

If you look at the previous photo you'll see that, with BIAB, it's not a given that you lose 3 litres to trub.
Actually with 3V you often lose that to deadspace in the mash tun, if using something like an esky.

edit: here's another shot from a different brew:



This is the total contents of the urn left overnight then drained into a 2L juice bottle. If you look at the first pic I posted from the first brew, what happens is that when I finish the boil I stick the lid on the urn and let the wort foam up until steam shoots out of the nostrils on the urn lid, then switch off. This sterilises the headspace, then I let it cool for around 25 mins before draining. As you can see, a lot of the trub sticks in a ring and gets stranded there, so doesn't end up in the runnings.

On the particular brew pictured, I drew off the clear wort, reboiled and saved it for starters etc IIRC.