BIAB CHINOOK IPA

[Hez]

Hi, I have a lot of Chinook hops leftovers and I'd like to make an IPA. I was thinking about buying other hops but I eventually ran into a recipe called: "Chinook IPA". Apparently, it's so popular, Northen Brewer sells a kit for that but I'm doing BIAB and from scratch, as usual... I'm not willing to buy any kit.

I found a recipe in other yankie forum (old post) which they say it won several contests and everyone said they love it.. blah blah... I've adapted it to my batch size and the alpha acid of my hops, etc.

Thanks in advance for your help.


Doubts and questions for you:

1.- The grain is calculated from the original recipe but I would like it to be darker, around 10SRM.. Should I add more munich and more crystal (twice as munich than crystal) or only increment the crystal malt? Would you add another kind of roasted malt?

2.- Do you think those mash steps are all right? Would you change the time/temp of each step? add more steps? anything different?

3.- The original recipe asked for mash hops. What do you think? I'm not sure, so I've added more into the boiling instead in order to match the IBU in the calculations. Is that ok?

4.- When they say 0' for a hop addition, that means to add the hops and remove them after chilling or to add them directly to the fermenter while adding the yeast? Do I add them 5' before the end of the boil and remove them after or before chilling? I chill my wort in the sink with esky blocks and changin the water, so it takes quite a bit to reach the correct temperature...

5.- I'm not changing my beer from one fermenter to a secondary one, and I'm going to bottle it. Would you do the dry hopping right after 2 days of fermenting or after 3? 4? How long will it take to finish the fermentation (aprox.)?


Grain (3590g):

72.55% 2610g Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
15.69% 560g Munich Malt (9.0 SRM)
7.84% 280g lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
3.92% 140g Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)

Estimated Pre-Boil OG: 1.045
Estimated OG: 1.067
Estimated FG: 1.019
Estimated ABV: 6.31%
65% efficiency <- last time I had 68%, but... just in case.
SRM: 5.71
EBC: 11.24


Water:

10l Batch
3.59g grain bill
0.8l/kg grain absorption
16.25l pre boil
90' boil
3.5l/h boil off rate
11l postboil
1l trub
total water needed 19.12l
total mash volume 21.52l


Mash Schedule (90'):

48º for 20'
65º for 60'
75.5º for 10'
sparge at 75.5º


Boil (90'):

TOTAL IBU: 65

60' 16.2g Chinook [11.90 %] 46.3 IBU
15' 13.2g Chinook [11.90 %] 18.7 IBU
10' 1/2 tablet of deltafloc
0' 13.2g Chinook [11.90 %]

DRY HOP 13.2g Chinook [11.90 %]
DRY HOP 16.5g Cascade [6.50 %]


Yeast:

Safale US-5 at 20º

 

[TwoCrows]

There are so many things that you could change with this recipe. Search for BIAB beer designer V1.3
Just try it and see as it is only a small batch. With modern malts just mash in at 65 and mashout at 76.
The 0 minute addition doesn't state IBU, so it could be a steep/ whirlpool addition @ 82-90 degrees?
You want to dry hop at approx. day 4 when the fermentation is nearly finished. This will help get the most out of your hops, the yeast are still active and the remaining ferment will continue to create Co2 and help prevent oxygenation to the wort.
Fermenting at 20 degrees, 18-19 would be better but this will be ok, the ferment should be done in 6-7 days then let it clean its self up for a few days.

 

[shacked]

This is what I'd do:

- mash at 64-65
- mash out 75 (ish)
- forget mash hops
- 60m boil
- shoot for about 35% of total IBU from your first addition.
- load up on hops between 15 and 0.
- round up all the hop amounts to the nearest 5g (that's just my thing)
- ferment at 18, ramp to 20 around day 4ish
- dry hop towards the end of fermentation

 

[Hez]

There are so many things that you could change with this recipe. Search for BIAB beer designer V1.3
Just try it and see as it is only a small batch. With modern malts just mash in at 65 and mashout at 76.
The 0 minute addition doesn't state IBU, so it could be a steep/ whirlpool addition @ 82-90 degrees?
You want to dry hop at approx. day 4 when the fermentation is nearly finished. This will help get the most out of your hops, the yeast are still active and the remaining ferment will continue to create Co2 and help prevent oxygenation to the wort.
Fermenting at 20 degrees, 18-19 would be better but this will be ok, the ferment should be done in 6-7 days then let it clean its self up for a few days.

I just read an article about dry hopping after posting and it agrees with you.
There's no point on dry hopping until fermentation is almost done otherwise all the aroma will escape with the CO2 through the airlock. Jeje thank you!

I think I will do just 3 additions, at 60', 15' and dry hopping after 4 days.

All the beers I've done so far have taken about 5 to 6 days to finish fermentation I asked because this will be the most alcoholic so far! Thanks, good to know more or less this is a constant

I use several calculators for getting all these data, I will look into this general one you tell me.. if I have time maybe I make my own one.

What about the grain and colour? Would you put more crystal? More Munich? Both? Any roasted one? I wonder what kind of flavour would I get with other combination... Maybe I should do a first one sticking to the recipe and move on from there for the next one.

 

[manticle]

It's a weird recipe.

I prefer EITHER pale + crystal OR pale + munich - not both.

Chinook is a very dank, resinous hop so I'd look at balancing with crystal but that's personal preference.

While I'm a fan of step mashing, I do it for a reason and I can't see a reason for the 48. Maybe something to do with a us recipe based on 6-row pale - not something that's needed here. Only time I'd use a temp close to that (more like 45) would be to push 4-vinyl guaiacol formation in a hefe via ferulic acid rest. Any reason for that step?

Mash hopping is a weird idea and not one I am convinced by. First wort hopping is a different kettle of fish.

0 min addition means as soon as you turn heat off, you add hops.

Some dry hop throughout ferment and at the end (common with NEIPA) but I prefer at the end for a couple of days max. I'm not a crazy hop head lupulin addict though.

 

[fletcher]

changes i'd make would be:

1. remove the munich from the recipe if possible. 92% pale, 5% carapils, 3% crystal or thereabouts
2. mash at 65c (then mash out at 75c)
3. hop additions at first wort or 60 mins (to about 30ibu), and a HUGE addition at whirlpool (30-40ibu).
4. ferment at 18c
5. dry hop the rest of your hops when fermentation has almost finished - about 1.015 - it should hopefully finish closer to 1.010ish.
6. sexual

 

[laxation]

For the colour, I would think about what flavour you're trying to add and then look for a malt that adds that flavour

 

[rude]

No Munich
No crystal with Munich
Is this a IPA thing ?
Im a munich fiend sorry & often use both but will try without to see
Like the 60 min idea at 30 ibu

 

[fletcher]

No Munich
No crystal with Munich
Is this a IPA thing ?
Im a munich fiend sorry & often use both but will try without to see
Like the 60 min idea at 30 ibu

just for IPAs that are brewed 'to style'. this effectively means bugger-all because you can put whatever you want in, however 'to style' west coast IPAs are all about hops and hop imbalance. munich (in my opinion - and most definitely @Dan Pratt 's opinion) can muddle and cloud that lovely hop presence. definitely give it a try. neither with nor without munich are wrong. it's all about what you like, but experimentation is certainly fun.

 

[Hez]

Sorry for not answering 1 to 1, too many of you! jejeje thank you all: @manticle, @fletcher, @rude, @shacked, @TwoCrows, @laxation.
After all your comments, these are the things I'm sure about:

- Only 2 step mash at 65º and 75º mash out and sparge. I read the 48º step in a yankie forum, maybe because of their 6-row industrial barley, I don't know. Thank you, @manticle.
- I'll totally ditch the idea of the mash hops. I already did before even asking you, but after reading your opinions I'm 100% sure about it.
- Do only 3 hop additions: at 60' (only up to 30IBU), 15' (big one) and after ~4 days when gravity is around 1.015
- Carapils give head retention and body, so they stay at a 5% wich is the magic number I've seen in pretty much all IPA recipes, articles, forums, etc. Thanks @fletcher.

But I still have doubts too... what do you think of this:

Total: 64.1 IBU
60' 10g Chinook (11.9%) 28.6 IBU
15' 25g Chinook (11.9%) 35.5 IBU
DRY HOP 15g Chinook [11.90 %]
DRY HOP 15g Cascade [6.50 %]

(rounded quantities @shacked jejeje)

Will it be enough aroma? If we go for an american IPA, we have to have a lot of hoppiness! I put the cascade because I have some left, around that amount, although I'm not sure, otherwise I will use more Chinook. I beleive Chinook and Cascade are a good combination (Sierra Nevada Pale Ale).

Munich gives malt flavour but not sweetness, so it looks like my thing... I like some maltiness. Crystal gives malt flavour and sweetness, so it has to stay low (I don't like very sweet pale ales / IPAs) but I beleive @manticle has a point when he says to put some in order to balance the pine/resin taste of the chinook.

I like @fletcher suggestion: 92% pale, 5% carapils, 3% crystal but that would give me a really really pale beer with pretty low to none maltiness.

92% 3300g Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
5% 180g Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
3% 110g lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)

SRM: 7.38 EBC: 14.53

I'll try the munich thing next time! Maybe with some german hops and no crystal... how does it sound a German IPA? jejeje

 

[Mikeyr]

Chinook is my go to favourite hop, in fact someone did a "desert island" single hop thread i.e. what would you take ...... chinook's my pick.

Depending how much you have, I'd chuck some in to "mostly bitter" at 60 and then as much as you dare late in the piece. 10,5 or at flame out or all of the above. Steep late for heaps of aroma. If you had any Simcoe to play with, that's my all time favourite double act. Kind of like chewing a Vodka soaked pine cone in the bottom of a pine needle heap in a Tassie pine forest mid summer.

US IPA is technically hop driven with nothing in the way i.e. maltiness to hide the hops ........ meh! Plenty of pretty bloody different IPA's out of the states that break that rule and I'm guessing you're not entering the Olympics with this one. Go with what you like!

As for malt I'm a heathen use any base you like, I've used Marris, Pils, Pale through Golden P if variants of the same brew, all good, usually with a 5-10% wheat &/or 3-5% carapils for head and some crystal to colour. Personally I prefer a bit more body and sweetness so upping the temp a couple of degrees. 67ish

 

[Hez]

Chinook is my go to favourite hop, in fact someone did a "desert island" single hop thread i.e. what would you take ...... chinook's my pick.

Depending how much you have, I'd chuck some in to "mostly bitter" at 60 and then as much as you dare late in the piece. 10,5 or at flame out or all of the above. Steep late for heaps of aroma. If you had any Simcoe to play with, that's my all time favourite double act. Kind of like chewing a Vodka soaked pine cone in the bottom of a pine needle heap in a Tassie pine forest mid summer.

US IPA is technically hop driven with nothing in the way i.e. maltiness to hide the hops ........ meh! Plenty of pretty bloody different IPA's out of the states that break that rule and I'm guessing you're not entering the Olympics with this one. Go with what you like!

As for malt I'm a heathen use any base you like, I've used Marris, Pils, Pale through Golden P if variants of the same brew, all good, usually with a 5-10% wheat &/or 3-5% carapils for head and some crystal to colour. Personally I prefer a bit more body and sweetness so upping the temp a couple of degrees. 67ish

I don't know if you have read the whole post or just the first one, the recipe has evolved quite a bit... jejeje

About the total amount of IBUs, I've read it has to be balanced 1:1 with the gravity at most. I mean if I have OG 1065 the bitterness should be equal/less than 65 IBU I pussed it to the max because the original recipe in which I based mine called for that, and being a USA style IPA I think it should be like that.

Some people have adviced to put hops only up to 30IBU at 60' and leave the "big bittering hop addition" for the last 15', now you tell me to put all my bittering at the beginning and leave some for the last 10' to 0' of the boil.
I've read that hop aroma evaporates if it's boiled more than 10-15' and on the other side, hops added later than 15' don't have any effect on the bitterness. What I don't understand is what difference it makes to put the bittering hops at the beginning or at the end of the "bittering part of boiling". I mean:
less hops + more boil time = more hops + less boil time
But will they leave a different flavour/aroma? What's the reason for using less than half of the bittering hops at the beginning?

About the hop additions from 10' to 0' of boil and before the end of fermentation, they are suposed to only leave aroma, but during the fermentarion this aroma is going to fly away with the CO2 through the airlock, so what's the point? There must be one if almost every IPA recipe calls for it! what is it?

Summary:
1.- bittering hops only at 60' or up to 30IBU at 60' and the rest at 15' ¿? why?
2.- why to use hops from 10' to 0' and/or dry hopping before the fermentation ends?

 

[Mikeyr]

Think you have a good handle on it, not used the 1:1 method, plenty of good rules of thumb, often which disagree!

Definition of "big".....Comes down to your "hop budget", I'd agree with hopping late 100%, but you need a butt load more hops to achieve the same IBU. I'm planing a Smash this weekend using the 10 minute method. I.e. no 60 min addition, means I'm going to be using about 160g in one hit and then 50 for dry hopping later.

Later additions creates less bitterness (IBUs) but leaves more aroma and flavour. Less of the volatiles boil off.

Adding dry hops after most of the fermentation is complete add's back more aroma notes from the volatiles in the hops which are lost through the ferment process (gas off with the CO2).

Not everything is lost in fermentation process, dry hopping is adding back some that are and adding some freshness. And if' you're lucky enough one day to get some hop cones to dry hop with rather than pellets well.........!!!!!!!

Coriander/Cilantro is a good comparison, raw seeds are a bit bland but have some nice flavours, toast them and they change their flavour and change their aroma. Coriander leaves go the other way, cook with then and you get a subtle peppery earthy flavour, add them late in any dish you get freshness. You can use the same plant 4 times in a cook and if you do you get a great result. Anyone who likes a good laksa would get it or I reckon if you've ever see old Heston B's idea that reinforcing the flavours throughout the cook provides layers of flavour and the bloody atomiser he uses at the table sometimes, seals the deal.

And if you want to implode your head ...... search cube hopping or keg hopping ........ (or listen to some podcasts/streams from Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer on The Brewing Network)

You've rolled the rock over on experimental hopping....... welcome to the darkside .....and you're going to need a bigger boat ....no hang on..., FREEZER!

 

[Hez]

Think you have a good handle on it, not used the 1:1 method, plenty of good rules of thumb, often which disagree!

Definition of "big".....Comes down to your "hop budget", I'd agree with hopping late 100%, but you need a butt load more hops to achieve the same IBU. I'm planing a Smash this weekend using the 10 minute method. I.e. no 60 min addition, means I'm going to be using about 160g in one hit and then 50 for dry hopping later.

Later additions creates less bitterness (IBUs) but leaves more aroma and flavour. Less of the volatiles boil off.

Adding dry hops after most of the fermentation is complete add's back more aroma notes from the volatiles in the hops which are lost through the ferment process (gas off with the CO2).

Not everything is lost in fermentation process, dry hopping is adding back some that are and adding some freshness. And if' you're lucky enough one day to get some hop cones to dry hop with rather than pellets well.........!!!!!!!

Coriander/Cilantro is a good comparison, raw seeds are a bit bland but have some nice flavours, toast them and they change their flavour and change their aroma. Coriander leaves go the other way, cook with then and you get a subtle peppery earthy flavour, add them late in any dish you get freshness. You can use the same plant 4 times in a cook and if you do you get a great result. Anyone who likes a good laksa would get it or I reckon if you've ever see old Heston B's idea that reinforcing the flavours throughout the cook provides layers of flavour and the bloody atomiser he uses at the table sometimes, seals the deal.

And if you want to implode your head ...... search cube hopping or keg hopping ........ (or listen to some podcasts/streams from Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer on The Brewing Network)

You've rolled the rock over on experimental hopping....... welcome to the darkside .....and you're going to need a bigger boat ....no hang on..., FREEZER!

Jejeje the light is slowly getting into me... I'm a newbie, this will be my 6th beer ever and my second attempt of making an IPA. The first one turned out to be a sweet not-bitter-at-all not-so-hoppy very-alcoholic pale ale and I used (wasted) over 70g of cascade on it for a 10l batch. The result was a nice weird beer easy to drink and very enjoyable, but totally different to what I expected. From a brewer's point of view: a total disaster.

It's interesting the thought of the "aroma layers". The analogy with the coriander is a good one. I think I will stick to the last hops plan: 30IBU at 60', 35IBU at 15' and same amount as dry hopped after 4 days in the fermenter. Do you think it's all right?

I like the maltiness but not so much the sweetness, so I'll take these guys advice. I'll try with just carapils and crystal for this one and next time I'll try with munich and no crystal. I know I'm not going to win any contest, I'm just learning... but I hope this one is better!

About the bigger boat and freezer... yes, I know but I'm staying in Australia for... not much more so that will have to wait until I go back home. I'll try to put the fermenter in a cold part of my appartment, I think I'll be able to keep the temp around 20º

---- COOKING OFFTOPIC ----
In Spain (I'm from Madrid) we barely use coriander but I love eating and cooking things from other parts of the world, so I know what you mean. Same thing happens to other herbs. For instance dried parsley is "bland" but fresh parsley is amazing, however dried oregano has a very intense aroma and fresh is much more subtle. If you cook with dried parsley you get flavour but if you cook with fresh parsley you don't get so much.
A typical basque sauce is the "salsa verde" (green sauce), basically you put some olive oil, lots of thin cut garlic and 1 or 2 small cayenne peppers in a pan, cook it until the garlic is a little golden, then you add some white wine and fish stock (this is usually made for clams, so if you steam-cook some clams, you can add their "juice" instead) and a lot of dried parsley. After the sauce has reduced a little (let the wine bubble) you add your fish or clams (half cooked separatedly), a little more fresh parsley and finish to cook. Just before serving you add some more fresh parsley and a really good olive oil on top. That IS sexual @fletcher, beleive me.
I do it here with stargazer and pippies sometimes and it's delicious, best served with some Pinot Gris from NZ. If you want the full recipe with video and all, look for "rape en salsa verde con almejas". Basque cuisine is amazing. Lots of Michelin stars up there... gora euskadi!

 

[fletcher]

Sorry for not answering 1 to 1, too many of you! jejeje thank you all: @manticle, @fletcher, @rude, @shacked, @TwoCrows, @laxation.
After all your comments, these are the things I'm sure about:

- Only 2 step mash at 65º and 75º mash out and sparge. I read the 48º step in a yankie forum, maybe because of their 6-row industrial barley, I don't know. Thank you, @manticle.
- I'll totally ditch the idea of the mash hops. I already did before even asking you, but after reading your opinions I'm 100% sure about it.
- Do only 3 hop additions: at 60' (only up to 30IBU), 15' (big one) and after ~4 days when gravity is around 1.015
- Carapils give head retention and body, so they stay at a 5% wich is the magic number I've seen in pretty much all IPA recipes, articles, forums, etc. Thanks @fletcher.

But I still have doubts too... what do you think of this:

Total: 64.1 IBU
60' 10g Chinook (11.9%) 28.6 IBU
15' 25g Chinook (11.9%) 35.5 IBU
DRY HOP 15g Chinook [11.90 %]
DRY HOP 15g Cascade [6.50 %]

looks good. if it were my IPA, i'd increase your 60 minute addition slightly to get 30 ibu, then you'd have a bit more to play with with your next addition (which i would add at flameout/whirlpool, or 0 mins, instead of 15 mins). that would potentially give you a bit more to add as dry hops. and are you able to use more? with american ipas, go big. at the moment, you've dry hopped about 3g/L which is a good start, but with small batches, i'd happily go for 5 or 6g/L because you're not using too much more.

Will it be enough aroma? If we go for an american IPA, we have to have a lot of hoppiness! I put the cascade because I have some left, around that amount, although I'm not sure, otherwise I will use more Chinook. I beleive Chinook and Cascade are a good combination (Sierra Nevada Pale Ale).

cascade and chinook are beautiful together. either will work.

Munich gives malt flavour but not sweetness, so it looks like my thing... I like some maltiness. Crystal gives malt flavour and sweetness, so it has to stay low (I don't like very sweet pale ales / IPAs) but I beleive @manticle has a point when he says to put some in order to balance the pine/resin taste of the chinook.

I like @fletcher suggestion: 92% pale, 5% carapils, 3% crystal but that would give me a really really pale beer with pretty low to none maltiness.

92% 3300g Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
5% 180g Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
3% 110g lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)

SRM: 7.38 EBC: 14.53

malty beers are great, but often people throw everything into an ipa, and i wonder why. if you're after an american ipa, you want out of balance hop presence, not malt. sweetness to balance the abv and to a lesser extent, the hops, yes but you really need to let that chinook take centre stage, hence my suggestion of big flame out addition and big dry hop.

I'll try the munich thing next time! Maybe with some german hops and no crystal... how does it sound a German IPA? jejeje

again, these are all MY opinions, so please, take them for what they are. from the sounds of it, you're after an american ipa, so i'm trying to suggest more west coast 'to style' suggestions - pale, hoppy, dry ipas. i've had success with munich before in ipas, but only because the large amount of hops were the main attraction (which negated the need and flavour of munich). i re-made the recipe without and the flavour became much sharper and less-muddled.

edit: please expand on your quoted post to see my other replies to your points

 

[Hez]

again, these are all MY opinions, so please, take them for what they are. from the sounds of it, you're after an american ipa, so i'm trying to suggest more west coast 'to style' suggestions - pale, hoppy, dry ipas. i've had success with munich before in ipas, but only because the large amount of hops were the main attraction (which negated the need and flavour of munich). i re-made the recipe without and the flavour became much sharper and less-muddled.

edit: please expand on your quoted post to see my other replies to your points

Thanks a lot!

I have a couple of questions about 0' hop additions... Do I use a sock and leave it there until I bottle or should I remove it before going into the fermenter?
I have a hop metal container (eBay, 6$) and I remove the bittering hops before chilling.

And... If I add 30ibu at 60' and the rest at 0' where the f*** are the other 35 ibu?!? [emoji848]

 

[manticle]

Unless you are whirlpool or cube hopping (or own a hop farm), you probably won't get 35 from zero min. That's why the recommendation for 50% at 60, then the remaining 50 from additions from 20 down to 0. You'll get some ibu whenever the wort is above about 80 ibu, simplistically speaking. Software may not predict 0 min additions though so try 20, 15, 10, & 5.

 

[Hez]

Unless you are whirlpool or cube hopping (or own a hop farm), you probably won't get 35 from zero min. That's why the recommendation for 50% at 60, then the remaining 50 from additions from 20 down to 0. You'll get some ibu whenever the wort is above about 80 ibu, simplistically speaking. Software may not predict 0 min additions though so try 20, 15, 10, & 5.

Try and error, isnt It?
Well i have around 70g of chinhook, i Hope it's enough for a miserable 10l batch


What about:

60' 10g Chinook (11.9%AA) = 28.94IBU
15' 10g Chinook (11.9%AA) = 21.54IBU
10' 10g Chinook (11.9%AA) = 10.49IBU
5' 10g Chinook (11.9%AA) = 5.77IBU
---------
TOTAL: 66.7IBU

+
DRYHOP 15g Chinhook
DRYHOP 15g Cascade

 

[Hez]

Should I leave ALL hops inside the fermenter or remove the ones added during the boiling before chilling or after chilling?

 

[manticle]

At the end of the boil, a significant amount of hop material will drop to the bottom, along with some protein sludge. Leave as much as you can.

Similarly, in the fermenter, most hop material will drop out. Leave that. Otherwise, don't stress.