Beerfest 2011 - Presented By The Melbourne Brewers

[haysie]

fellas like Brendo,and all MBers, and individuals, who contribute their time and effort to vicbrew,beerfest,and the anhc need to be congratulated,thanked ,and supported,not given **** on here.I find it hard to believe these things can't be discussed at a club meeting,surely thats part of what they're for :unsure: IMO more people prepared to put their hands up to assist with all the "dirty little jobs" wouldn't go astray ie: putting tables and chairs out,washing glasses,etc.These events will only continue with the support of brewers and volounteers,all of whom do it free of charge,Thanks to them all i say :beer:Everyone's entitled to their opinion,but i'd think it'd be fair to bring the issues up with the committee in a first instance,before a public forum, i don't think they bite <_<

Gawdd, I sound like I am repeating myself. A public forum too discuss BEERFEST 2011,and then too disagree with entry fees is a pertinent on topic post? I miss your point Toper? Was I meant to take to take it to an email address and disagree. Its a *&&^^ing forum for christ sake and if you dont want responses..... dont thread it. If you dont like the response dont get all personal about it either.
Not sure what brewclub you come from Toper, but Melbourne doesnt have an open committee meeting every month too discuss the decisions they have made, it just comes sort of second hand. Sure they dont bite either but very rarely would a whole committee be at a meeting. Members dont see minutes etc.
I agree these comps need multiple hands on and there are few too offer up. How do you change that? get a whole new brigade of young brewers I guess.
Thats been the push, which is k.
I still stick that the fees are excessive and Father Jack makes a nice scotch ale.

 

[brett mccluskey]

Gawdd, I sound like I am repeating myself. A public forum too discuss BEERFEST 2011,and then too disagree with entry fees is a pertinent on topic post? I miss your point Toper? Was I meant to take to take it to an email address and disagree. Its a *&&^^ing forum for christ sake and if you dont want responses..... dont thread it. If you dont like the response dont get all personal about it either.
Not sure what brewclub you come from Toper, but Melbourne doesnt have an open committee meeting every month too discuss the decisions they have made, it just comes sort of second hand. Sure they dont bite either but very rarely would a whole committee be at a meeting. Members dont see minutes etc.
I agree these comps need multiple hands on and there are few too offer up. How do you change that? get a whole new brigade of young brewers I guess.
Thats been the push, which is k.
I still stick that the fees are excessive and Father Jack makes a nice scotch ale.

My apologies Haysie :icon_cheers:I wasn't getting personal,all i meant was that if a club member of a club that's organising an event isn't happy about certain aspects of that event then at the very least,thats an issue to brought up at club level firstly. If they're not happy with the response ,then sure ,discuss and bring it up here. But at the very least ,give the organising committee a chance to address concerns ,A ***** fight on a public forum doesn't achieve much IMO I know MB doesn't have an open committee meeting,but you do have a "very ordinary member" rep,and all the committee members ,from Andy D down,i've always found to be very receptive to varying opinions .I don't think you need to address the entire committee to get your concerns listened to By the way,I'm a MBer too,and proud of it :kooi:

 

[wakkatoo]

*unsubscribed*




Won't be entering Beerfest unfortunately. Not because I don't want to, I just don't have any spare bottle atm...

 

[brett mccluskey]

*unsubscribed*




Won't be entering Beerfest unfortunately. Not because I don't want to, I just don't have any spare bottle atm...

Don't worry about that,get your arse there anyway,you'll have a ball,stewards and novice judges are always needed and welcome, :icon_cheers:Saturday night would nearly put a B+S ball to shame :super:

 

[haysie]

My apologies Haysie :icon_cheers:I wasn't getting personal,all i meant was that if a club member of a club that's organising an event isn't happy about certain aspects of that event then at the very least,thats an issue to brought up at club level firstly. If they're not happy with the response ,then sure ,discuss and bring it up here. But at the very least ,give the organising committee a chance to address concerns ,A ***** fight on a public forum doesn't achieve much IMO I know MB doesn't have an open committee meeting,but you do have a "very ordinary member" rep,and all the committee members ,from Andy D down,i've always found to be very receptive to varying opinions .I don't think you need to address the entire committee to get your concerns listened to By the way,I'm a MBer too,and proud of it :kooi:

Cheers Toper, it wasnt you whom I referred to taking things personal.
A ***** fight was never going to happen for mine, lack of feedback may have led to comments earlier this afternoon. Nevertheless I entirely disagree with your summation of the MB committee. I will not air that here though.

Its a given, there is 3 weeks to go for entries to close, the original poster doesnt know or wont tell if and when things are up n running. Instead bounces off people with no factual matter, a skirt.
A ***** fight on a public forum? Brendo may have got the ball rolling there.

 

[Maple]

Cheers Toper, it wasnt you whom I referred to taking things personal.
A ***** fight was never going to happen for mine, lack of feedback may have led to comments earlier this afternoon. Nevertheless I entirely disagree with your summation of the MB committee. I will not air that here though.

Its a given, there is 3 weeks to go for entries to close, the original poster doesnt know or wont tell if and when things are up n running. Instead bounces off people with no factual matter, a skirt.
A ***** fight on a public forum? Brendo may have got the ball rolling there.

nevermind, this isn't even worth a response.

edit: self moderated

 

[haysie]

Mods, feel free to delete this and every other contribution I have ever made. This is not the place I have learned and shared so much from.

******.

Glad you signed it ******,
Its the same line you cut n paste every time you pull out of a swap.

 

[Maple]

Glad you signed it ******,
Its the same line you cut n paste every time you pull out of a swap.

take it off line. we can settle this like gentlemen.

 

[brett mccluskey]

Cheers Toper, it wasnt you whom I referred to taking things personal.
A ***** fight was never going to happen for mine, lack of feedback may have led to comments earlier this afternoon. Nevertheless I entirely disagree with your summation of the MB committee. I will not air that here though.

Its a given, there is 3 weeks to go for entries to close, the original poster doesnt know or wont tell if and when things are up n running. Instead bounces off people with no factual matter, a skirt.
A ***** fight on a public forum? Brendo may have got the ball rolling there.

Thanks Haysie,I agree with a lot of your points,but we'll have to agree to disagree about the approachability of committee members.It's not my experience in any way :icon_cheers: Your opinions on judging standards are something i agree totally with though,for whatever entry fee ppl pay ,they deserve decent feedback,not ticks and circles,but to be fair to the judges,when things are pushed for time,ie:28 flights@!0 minutes per entry,and for some beers, judges discuss certain aspects, things can drag on to make a very long day,and palate fatigue sets in .More ppl volounteering to judge/steward would help ease the strain And probably improve the standard too,due to judges getting some "time out" to recover :lol:

 

[haysie]

Thanks Haysie,I agree with a lot of your points,but we'll have to agree to disagree about the approachability of committee members.It's not my experience in any way :icon_cheers: Your opinions on judging standards are something i agree totally with though,for whatever entry fee ppl pay ,they deserve decent feedback,not ticks and circles,but to be fair to the judges,when things are pushed for time,ie:28 flights@!0 minutes per entry,and for some beers, judges discuss certain aspects, things can drag on to make a very long day,and palate fatigue sets in .More ppl volounteering to judge/steward would help ease the strain And probably improve the standard too,due to judges getting some "time out" to recover :lol:

Absolutely no doubt Toper, I remember doing a 37 American Pale Ale flight 2 years ago, they were rooted by the end. I reckon its up to the organising committee to assure judges dont tick n circle though, and a fair spread... I know the spreads are 7, but in most cases you shouldnt get outside of 4. Sure, I here ya re. the push,, Tellem ya not ready if ya not.

 

[brett mccluskey]

take it off line. we can settle this like gentlemen.

Oooommmm!!!

 

[haysie]

Oooommmm!!!

Maybe the rye beer coming out. Who knows who cares. MB committee member no doubt.

 

[brett mccluskey]

Absolutely no doubt Toper, I remember doing a 37 American Pale Ale flight 2 years ago, they were rooted by the end. I reckon its up to the organising committee to assure judges dont tick n circle though, and a fair spread... I know the spreads are 7, but in most cases you shouldnt get outside of 4. Sure, I here ya re. the push,, Tellem ya not ready if ya not.

I completely agree,My first time judging was 2 years ago ,and out of 28/29 entries myself and the other 2 judges were within 3/4 points ,except for 3 entries The only way standards will improve ,though is if more ppl get involved,Less talk,more action!! :beer: We'll have a beer and discuss it further then ,Haysie :icon_cheers:

 

[brett mccluskey]

Maybe the rye beer coming out. Who knows who cares. MB committee member no doubt.

Who? Me?

 

[brett mccluskey]

Who? Me?

Simply trying to ease the tension a bit,gentlemen.

 

[geoffd]

:icon_offtopic: Jack, has that scotch ale aged another year? :icon_drool2:

Gone, loooong gone. I made a batch this year, but it didnt come out as good as the 2 previous attempts, so sadly it is extremely unlikely that I can get the 3 in a row, Shame (for me at least) I was looking foward to having a beer oscar made in my likeness for future winners trophy

Also fully agree with the thread sentiment, ALL THE PEOPLE HELPING OUT DESERVE THANKS & CONGRATS, blank scoresheets (lack of feedback issues) should be reported to the competition organiser, who can in turn educate the particular judge, who may well be a novice, just lazy, feel pressured by the time costraints in judging, be slightly pissed from a long flight. Heaps of reasons why judges aren't perfect, just like the beers

 

[DU99]

the sheets could be checked when there picked up by the stewards,that might help..i know it takes time but people are paying for the product to be judged..

 

[fcmcg]

the sheets could be checked when there picked up by the stewards,that might help..i know it takes time but people are paying for the product to be judged..

That is a fair point , but IMHO , stewards should not be looking at the score sheet in any great detail

 

[Fourstar]

the sheets could be checked when there picked up by the stewards,that might help..i know it takes time but people are paying for the product to be judged..

If the judge does it once and its rectified no big deal. If the judge continues to do it on every scoresheet or give one word answers after that, not only are you going to be losing novice judges on tables as they will never come back but the time it takes to judge one beer will double or even triple in time if the judge does not have the vocabulary at this stage in their judging experience to portray on paper what they are tasting/sensing.

Typically the first flight they are on is a learning experience and in future it may not hurt to have a novice tick-box next to the BJCP one on the scoresheet for VICBREW/AABC sanctioned competitions.

On the other hand, experienced judges and more importantly BJCP judges in particular should be fingered if they are not completing scoresheets correctly. <_< They must set the standard for all judges.

Im sure you see the conundrum we have here.

Infact rather than everyone airing their dirty laundry, do what i did. I too was sick of poor excuses for judging sheets coming back to me so i decided to start judging myself. I hope for every bad scoresheet thats come back to an entrant from someone else, one of mine without almost any free whitespace has met entrants on my flights.

Cheers. :icon_cheers:

 

[brendo]

OK... deep breath, lots to cover here...


Pricing

Melbourne Brewers have determined the pricing to ensure Beerfest is a viable long term competition, and have set the price structure to ensure that it remains so. As per Fourstar's earlier post, discounts apply for members of VicBrew affliated clubs, with an additional discount available for those who choose to utilise the online entry system.

The upside for you is that if you take advantage of all of the discounts available, entry is cheaper than last year and it is also faster for you to complete. Upside for us is that the comp is easier to run (by the limited volunteers available) and helps to reduce some of the issues that occurred last year which resulted in the comp loosing money.

Offline/Paper Entries: $11 non-club/independent entries, $9 vicbrew related club members
Online Entries: $9 Non-club/independent entries, $7 vicbrew related club members

Online entry will be available by the end of the week and I will let people know as soon as it is available.


Judging

Some very valid points have been raised in regards to judging - points which are in no way unique to Beerfest and are common across different competitions - particularly larger ones.

I completely agree that a score sheet that has little else than ticks and circles is of little use and hardly worth the entry fee for any competition. I have some examples of this kind of judging feedback at home from a variety of comps... fortunately the other judges on the panel have often been more helpful.

Others have already discussed some of the reasons that this happens - time pressure to keep things moving, a lack of judges leading to fatigue, inexperience, etc. All of these are true and are a common issue regardless of size - from Pale Ale mania with three categories (which struggled for judges) to VicBrew where a number of categories had to be judged by only two people.

Judging is a skill that continually needs to be honed and exercised - it is not a natural skill, but rather a learned practice. Currently, there is not an active way for judges to practice these skills beyond participating at competitions, however there is a group in its infancy called Beer Judging Australia whose focus will be on providing a continuous education program with the aim to lift the standard of judging. This idea was floated at ANHC, and while I think it is a great one, it will take some time to get going and have an effect.

As I said above, this is not an issue unique to Beerfest and will be an upcoming topic at the VicBrew level - again, this will take time to resolve.

So what does this mean for Beerfest and other comps in the short term? Competition organizers need to be aware of these issues and do their best to address them at their individual comps - but again this is not something that will necessarily be fixed overnight.

So what are some quick fixes? Here's some of my ideas which involve everyone taking appropriate responsibility (my opinions only).

1. If you are judging - look at the scoresheets you are producing. How helpful and informative are you being to the brewer? Would you find this info useful? If you need more time to make this happen - take it, but recognize that there needs to be a balance with timeliness also.

2. If you are are Stewarding, look over the sheets you are collecting. Is there a common pattern where a judge provides a cursory level of evaluation compared to the others? Maybe some feedback is in order...

3. As an entrant - recognize that a judge is not going to find everything wrong with your beer and list everything in minute detail - this would be overwhelming. Typically we try and focus on one or two issues to address. If you feel you are getting a lack of feedback, I would directly approach the competition organisers post the event (contact information is generally available) and discuss it constructively with them. Furthermore, consider speaking with the judge - as I said there is currently no feedback loop for judges on their performance, maybe there should be.

4. If you're not judging - start!! One quick way to lift the bar is to lead by your own example - learn about judging and get involved. Complete score sheets the way you want to see them, make yourself accountable for what you produce and where appropriate provide constructive feedback to fellow judges. You might find it harder than you think, but if you are actively trying you can't help but lift the overall standard.

As I said above, this is common to many competitions and further discussion should probably be moved to a new topic (happy to participate in it).


Expanding the competition

In the spirit of expanding the general homebrewing community, and recognising that this event takes place in Gippsland (an area without an active club/competition scene) Melbourne Brewers have launched a special category for Gippsland based brewers to find out who is the best brewer in Gippsland. It will be judged as an open category (Best of Show style) with entry free (at least for this year). There will be prizes for 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Posters have been sent out to Gippsland based homebrew shops - if you want to enter all you need to do is bring your entry to Grand Ridge between 1:30pm - 2:30pm on Saturday 19/2. Judging will commence at 3pm and awards will be announced as part of the competition awards ceremony Saturday night.