Beer Palate

[gwozniak]

Hi all
Been brewing for about a year and still find it hard to figure out what i'm tasting ( aside for astringency and DMS - beer gods blessed me with plenty of both ).
So how do you develop this ever elusive beer palate? It's not drinking a lot of beer becouse I've done that .

 

[sinkas]

BJCP course, you jusat missed this year's in perth

 

[altone]

Hi all
Been brewing for about a year and still find it hard to figure out what i'm tasting ( aside for astringency and DMS - beer gods blessed me with plenty of both ).
So how do you develop this ever elusive beer palate? It's not drinking a lot of beer becouse I've done that .

Well, you could always try what I'm doing ATM.

Get yourself a copy of the BJCP style book, not only does it give you a list of all the styles and what flavours and aromas are expected in them but also commercial examples of the style.

I buy the commercial brew and try to recognise the various elements in that beer.
Each time I try it I get a bit better idea of what I'm meant to be looking for.

I then try and identify the elements in my own brews and make notes.
My notes now compared to my original notes show that I'm getting better
recognising various elements.

You're right drinking a lot of beer doesn't help - you have to drink less and think more.

Goes against my upbringing really.

 

[thanme]

Who's the BJCP course run through in WA?? And where can we get info about it?

 

[Scruffy]

Also have a look through these.

These wine like tasting notes from Michael Jackson (the one with the beard...) should help you place the long words and phrases, so important at your local HB club tastings and mini comps...

 

[eamonnfoley]

I think there is a degree of natural sensory ability involved in having a beer palate. Bit like having good hearing, eye sight, etc.

But I agree we should all try to develop and improve our beer palate.

 

[matti]

To develop a beer tasting knowledge you need to train your brain.
This means of course you need to try a lot of different type of beers and read up about these as well a long side.
All this with out getting overly intoxicated.
You can do this without doing a course but it will take longer as you will not get Knowledgeable help along the way.

A cold make can make it very difficult and a lot of food will also make it difficult.

To achieve a clean palate before tasting you should have finish a meal no closer the 1/2 hour and nothing worse the a bucket of chip with loads of gravy.
Also i suggest you leave the aftershave off for the day and no strong flowers scent around.

Smell your armpit and off you go.

Unfortunately or fortunate With beer you have to swallow the content so keep the sample rather small.
3 good mouthfull.
BJPC guideline is basically a guide to well know beer styles around the world and very Americanised as they were the pilgrimes of craft brewing on a grand scale At least in literature and in the English language.

The BJPC guideline and course material is valuable in learning different way to detect different types of flavour.

There are several other material book by Michael Jackson that describes exotic beer.
This is all mouth drooling stuff but very difficult and expensive to source this beers.

My beer tasting sense is not the greatest or the most accurate but I can describe what I Do experience when drinking a drop of ale or lager.

Keep a note pad next to you beer stuff and jot down what you tasted and then have a more experienced taster give you feed back.

Lately I have trouble picking up diacetyl or coffee taint is beer but i love butter and drink way too much coffee so all this things doesn't help either.

Beer tasting should be fun so don't make it a chore. Because ther nothing boring about having a beer and enjoying the flavours.
Drinking Homebrew is great way to learn.
Only trouble no brew to drink in my house.
Well Coffee it is then.

Ramble on

 

[gwozniak]

Thanks guys
I think the key is tasting a beer while having someone/something helping you to figure out what you're tasting so the BJCP guidlines is a good idea. Also got a beer tasting get together this weekend with mates. This weekend it's turn for English bitters.

I didn't know there was a BJCP course in Perth. Have just finished reading trhough the material the other day. Speaking of BJCP, are many of you judges who get to go and judge comps? How did you get into it?

 

[bum]

Everyone above has a completely valid point but here is my slightly different take on the situation:

Try as many different beers as you can and then find what you like rather than what someone else tells you to look for - then use the references mentioned above to backwards-engineer those aspects into your beer.

Obviously my perspective is completely nullified if your intent is to enter beers into comps.

 

[manticle]

I'm kind of with bum on this.

To add though:

I think the first thing you need to do is learn to distinguish what each ingredient brings to the final taste. Can you distinguish malt from hops, yeast from malt? Then can you distinguish what kind of malt or when the hops were added or what they were? Once you understand that that rich, robust flavour is not actually malt but yeast, then you can work out that that yeast might bring plum flavours or whatever else. A good way to do this is to start brewing SMASH.

Another good way is to buy different types and styles of beers (one or two of each only) and taste early in the evening. read about them and see if you can find the flavours described. Link them to the ingredient you think is responsible.

At the end of the day though - your palate is individual and suggestion is very....well.....suggestive. You need to be aware of what you enjoy and the flavours that reminds you of.

I have a palate but I don't know if I have either a beer palate or much beer palate adjective knowledge. I certainly couldn't impress a BJCP judge but I don't care much.

 

[Cocko]

When I taste my brews, I think Oh, there is that adjustment I made or whatever....

When a mate tastes my brew and say "xxxx" I think - "Glad they said something"

What I am getting at here is slightly OT but relevant in an essence:

I brew beer I appreciate, and go from there..... If you are brewing for an outside opinion, I know it is great when someone says "that is awesome beer" BUT, who are you brewing for?

I brew for me and my palette!

Sorry, :icon_offtopic:

AND :icon_drunk:

Ok, goodnight!

 

[gwozniak]

I can tell malt, hops and yeast appart but no chance of guessing what malt was used (except for roasted malt) or what hops were used although it's relatively easy to roughly tell when during the boil they were used. It's the detailed comments you see in beer reviews that i'm having problems with.

Actually learned something new just then. I'm drinking an experiment beer in which i used a fair amount of dextrose so just learend what that cidery dextrose taste is all about. It's shi* .

Guess the best thing i could do to improve my palate is to stop smoking

 

[manticle]

Even a smoker can improve/train their palate. Seriously brew some smash beers or at least stick to using one hop per brew until you know what it brings to the mix.

Dextrose doesn't become cidery. Cider flavours or more appropriately green apple (acetylaldehyde) comes from underpitching and/or wonky yeast treatment. Dextrose dries a brew out and makes alcohol. Tasted that flavour in an all grain brew recently (no dex). Apparently it dissipates with time. Dextrose/white sugar are the white tail spiders of brewing - inappropriately blamed for problems they didn't cause.

Also good cider doesn't really taste like acetylaldehyde either.

 

[bum]

Seriously brew some smash beers or at least stick to using one hop per brew until you know what it brings to the mix.

I agree with this on paper (for want of a better term) but I think that often times various flavours work better when played against each other rather than just on their own and it is more useful to have an understanding of process. For example, you can brew with one hop only and make a very good beer or you can brew with more than one and potentially make a great beer - I think it is about understanding the complexity (where anything of interest comes from) and you don't get this from SMASH brewing (at least not to the same degree). I am aware I am not stating my point clearly. If you understand that bittering come from a certain point of the boil and where your flavour and aroma varieties were added I think you have a chance of understanding the delicate balance of a good beer better than if you segregate everything.

Blah.

Apologies.

(The caveat here is obviously K&B brewing, I'd stick to one variety unless you had a pretty good understanding of what the kit does as a K&K)

 

[manticle]

I agree with this on paper (for want of a better term) but I think that often times various flavours work better when played against each other rather than just on their own and it is more useful to have an understanding of process. For example, you can brew with one hop only and make a very good beer or you can brew with more than one and potentially make a great beer - I think it is about understanding the complexity (where anything of interest comes from) and you don't get this from SMASH brewing (at least not to the same degree). I am aware I am not stating my point clearly. If you understand that bittering come from a certain point of the boil and where your flavour and aroma varieties were added I think you have a chance of understanding the delicate balance of a good beer better than if you segregate everything.

Blah.

Apologies.

(The caveat here is obviously K&B brewing, I'd stick to one variety unless you had a pretty good understanding of what the kit does as a K&K)

Some of the world's most complex beers use only one or two types and have very simple grain bills. I have trappists in mind but I'm sure there are others. Beers were traditionally formed and gained individual character based on available ingredients. You can make a complex tomato sauce using three ingredients, some condiments and altering your processes.

 

[rackemup]

Hi all
Been brewing for about a year and still find it hard to figure out what i'm tasting ( aside for astringency and DMS - beer gods blessed me with plenty of both ).
So how do you develop this ever elusive beer palate? It's not drinking a lot of beer becouse I've done that .

Drink alot of quality, varied beers. don't be afraid to experiment.
i recently tried a rauch beer and although i thought it tasted like drinking beer through a bong, it's still experience under the belt so to speak.
also, drinking v.b will not improve or expand your 'palate.' it will only cause hangovers.
experiment, experiment, experiment!

 

[bum]

Some of the world's most complex beers use only one or two types and have very simple grain bills. I have trappists in mind but I'm sure there are others.

If they manage it in any manner other than a through a deep understanding of process and a strict adherence to a particular method I'll take back my point completely.

 

[manticle]

I think that was my original point - simplify the ingredients, learn what they do and focus on the processes being schmick.

I may have not expressed it properly but having too many ingredients in anything makes it difficult to learn what's there and what it does. How can you pick capsicum flavour out of a relish if you've never tried capsicum? Obviously you still need to make a good relish.

 

[Fourstar]

I think the first thing you need to do is learn to distinguish what each ingredient brings to the final taste. Can you distinguish malt from hops, yeast from malt? Then can you distinguish what kind of malt or when the hops were added or what they were? Once you understand that that rich, robust flavour is not actually malt but yeast, then you can work out that that yeast might bring plum flavours or whatever else.

Perfect example. The way i go about things i evalutate the BJCP guidelines and attempt to look for those flavours/aromas. for example the AIPA i have in my hands with a palate breakdown and the ingredients below:

5.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (1.7 SRM) Grain 76.9 %
0.50 kg Caramalt (Joe White) (17.3 SRM) Grain 7.7 %
0.40 kg Carafoam (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.2 %
0.35 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 5.4 %
0.25 kg Crystal (Joe White) (34.2 SRM) Grain 3.8 %
20.00 gm Magnum [12.50%] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 28.8 IBU
15.00 gm Centennial [9.70%] (20 min) Hops 9.2 IBU
15.00 gm Cascade [7.80%] (20 min) Hops 7.4 IBU
20.00 gm Centennial [9.70%] (5 min) Hops 4.1 IBU
20.00 gm Cascade [7.80%] (5 min) Hops 3.3 IBU
20.00 gm Centennial [10.00%] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
20.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
3.40 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
4.50 gm Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
6.80 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) Yeast-Ale

Aroma: american hops, citrusy, malty, bready, quite clean yest profile, slightly nutty, some sweetness.

Flavour: Deep hop flavour, some malt sweetness, some caramel, bready munich flavours, nuttiness. finishes quite toasty/bready, clean full palate, firm bitterness, finishes smooth/creamy.

associate the following from the description above:
nutty = munich or yeast
citrus = hops
malty = munich or pale malt
sweetness = caramalt
caramel = crystal
toasty = munich/pale malt
creamy = munich./hops/carapils (head is very smooth/creamy from crystals and carapils)


I hope that helps. Basically drink as much as you can and as varied as you can. You dont become an expert overnight. The more you taste the better you get.

 

[gwozniak]

Even a smoker can improve/train their palate. Seriously brew some smash beers or at least stick to using one hop per brew until you know what it brings to the mix.

Dextrose doesn't become cidery. Cider flavours or more appropriately green apple (acetylaldehyde) comes from underpitching and/or wonky yeast treatment. Dextrose dries a brew out and makes alcohol. Tasted that flavour in an all grain brew recently (no dex). Apparently it dissipates with time. Dextrose/white sugar are the white tail spiders of brewing - inappropriately blamed for problems they didn't cause.

Also good cider doesn't really taste like acetylaldehyde either.

Good call on the cidry/acetylaldehyde flavor manticle. I had this acidity a few times now. Never thought to have called it green apples but now that you have it is very much like green apples. Will have to look at my yeasts now. Just started using liquid yeast in the last batch so hopefully no green apples from now on.
Love it when i learn something new!!! Thanks!!!