Batch Sparge Or Fly Sparge?

[Beerbuoy]

Just dropped my 3rd all grain into the fermenter. Irish Red Ale mmmmmmm :icon_drool2: .

Problem.... Start SG is a miserable 1034 :blink: ........heeeellooooo flavor...this is going to be one watery arse beer.

I'm not really worried about efficency but this came out at 55%. Gotta do better then that.

During the fly sparge the flow got very slow, almost a stuck sparge. I kept going but the wort seemed to get lighter in colour to soon. My theory is I basically had a stuck sparge and the sparge water was channelling around the grain bed somwhere. Now I'm thinking maybe batch sparge would be a bit more fool proof. I'm not out to set any records on efficency anyway so if its going to be more reliable maybe I should start batch sparging???

Your thoughts??

 

[Bribie G]

How were you fly sparging, was it by hand or do you have a proper rotating sparge arm setup? I would definitely avoid methods such a watering can or pouring out of an electric kettle. I'm BIABing now so it's like one enormous batch sparge :lol: but in my partial days I always batch sparged my 2 kg in a stockpot and got good extraction. Don't worry about wort clarity, some whirlfloc and whirlpooling in kettle will fix that. I've recently bottled and all grain cerveza where the wort was very turbid at the beginning of the boil, but it's almost crystal clear in the bottle and nil chill haze.

Best of luck next time

 

[Pumpy]

BeerBuoy , It is only your third mash,Time will perfect your 'Fly sparging' , you will probably find that you are loosing your correct sparge water temperature.
that is easily done fly sparging

Sounds if you have problems with a slow sparge, then you were struggling to fly sparge, and you mash lid was off, loosing heat .

IMO if you are starting out 'Batch sparge' its easier .
If you have plenty of time on your hands and wish to persue 'fly sparging' then do so

( those people who fly sparge swear 'by it' or 'at it' not quite sure which

1. 
   I batch sparge,
   
   
2. I crush quite fine,
3. each batch of sparge water I make sure the mash temp is at 75.6C when sparging ,
4. give it a stir.
5. recirculate to reset the grain bed
6. and allow 10 mins between draining the mash tun .
7. repeat 2-5
   
   This method will give you 85 % efficiency

Pumpy

 

[Gavo]

I batch sparge... it's too simple to do otherwise. I always get at least 75% efficiency most times between 80% to 85%. What Pumpy has said about temp makes sense. I had some trouble keeping the temp right to day and only made 75% efficiency with the same equipment and routine that I normally get higher with.

Cheers
Gavo.

 

[KHB]

I fly sparge get 80% effiency everytime always make sure my sparge water is 76.c

KHB

 

[jimi]

Pumpy is spot on.
I do exactly the same ... only I consistantly hit 84% <_<

 

[Beerbuoy]

Cheers people.

I'll give the batch sparge a go next time.

If I get 80% that'll do me. Better to keep it simple as I'm still very much new to AG.

 

[clean brewer]

Cheers people.

I'll give the batch sparge a go next time.

If I get 80% that'll do me. Better to keep it simple as I'm still very much new to AG.

Batch, batch, batch, hoy, hoy, hoy...

I get 75% and above, and simple......

:icon_cheers: CB

3rd one Ian? Noice work.. :super: Any plans of getting down this way soon??

 

[Screwtop]

How unusual, all the batch sparge brewers are advising against fly sparging. I fly sparge so going to advise you to continue, because 1. Its so easy and 2. You will get better efficiency.

For fly sparging, don't use a sprinkler or rotating arm sparger they clog and there is massive temp loss as the sparge water dribbles out as droplets and looses a great deal of temp before dropping to the mash liquor. Drain very slowly, set your outlet at .5L/min and then set your sparge water in at the same rate, no stuck sparges this way. Dont start running your wort out at full throttle, open the valve slightly and set the flow rate. Then run sparge water in using something simple like a hose onto a floating lid from a 2L plastic ice cream container to diffuse the flow, or some alfoil over the top of the mash. Keep the tun closed as much as you can during sparging to maintain temp and use sparge water of 85C or hotter to maintain a mash temp of 77C during the sparge and try to maintain an inch or so of wort above your grainbed until all of your sparge water has run in. The wort in the tun does clear up, that's normal and a good sign your sweet wort is being flushed from the grain.

What temp did you take your OG reading at, very low efficiency for fly sparging, would be looking at other areas.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[matti]

The temp on the mash is brought to 76 and rest for 10 minutes
I fly sparge and and the hot water urn is set on 80 degrees.
By the time it hits the mash it drop two degrees.
Run off real slow and increase the speed to gentle run off.
MONITOR THE RUN OFF so it remains constant when fly sparging.
The trick is to have the mash "just settled" with fine crush.
If you grains is cracked right with a lot of husk intact, you can try to achieve a floating mash and the run off can be run off faster.

Also a critical aspect of fly sparging is to have the pH correct on the sparge water.
Around pH 5.8-6.2 is ideal IMO

 

[clean brewer]

How unusual, all the batch sparge brewers are advising against fly sparging. I fly sparge so going to advise you to continue, because 1. Its so easy and 2. You will get better efficiency.

For fly sparging, don't use a sprinkler or rotating arm sparger they clog and there is massive temp loss as the sparge water dribbles out as droplets and looses a great deal of temp before dropping to the mash liquor. Drain very slowly, set your outlet at .5L/min and then set your sparge water in at the same rate, no stuck sparges this way. Dont start running your wort out at full throttle, open the valve slightly and set the flow rate. Then run sparge water in using something simple like a hose onto a floating lid from a 2L plastic ice cream container to diffuse the flow, or some alfoil over the top of the mash. Keep the tun closed as much as you can during sparging to maintain temp and use sparge water of 85C or hotter to maintain a mash temp of 77C during the sparge and try to maintain an inch or so of wort above your grainbed until all of your sparge water has run in. The wort in the tun does clear up, that's normal and a good sign your sweet wort is being flushed from the grain.

What temp did you take your OG reading at, very low efficiency for fly sparging, would be looking at other areas.

Cheers,

Screwy

I might just try that for my next 10 brews Mike and see how I go, Im still getting 75-80+% but could get a bit more .. Is it worth it unless im getting constant shithouse eff?

:icon_cheers: CB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'll try for balance as well.

I choose batch sparging - because to me it is a little more "foolproof" and I unfortunately fall into the right category to feel that effect.

BUT - there is nothing wrong with continuous sparging. It should work, it shouldn't be "hard" and it will, if done correctly give you the best efficiency of all the different ways of lautering.

Your guesses at what happened to you sound fairly good to me - and screwtop's suggestions sound like they are right on the money to help you get through any issues.

The other thing you might try, to help isolate if it really was a channeling issue, is to try and cut the mash a little.

Take a nice big carving knife, hold it so that it will go into your mash till its about 2ish inches off the false bottom - and "cut" the mash in a diagonal criss cross pattern. Leaving maybe 2cm gaps between the cuts. This helps disrupt any channels that have formed and allows wort flow through any areas/layers that have somehow formed which are diverting wort around them. Not pnetrating allt eh way to the false bottom avoids completely disrupting the grain bed and necessitating another re-circulation.

Rakes in a commercial lauter tun are there for exactly this reason.

I only "think" this might help. I've done it on one or two occasions when I have been trying out the fly sparge thing and it seemed to work, but as I said, I mainly batch sparge - so more experienced fly spargers might be better able to comment on whether cutting the bed has any effect (good or bad) on a homebrew scale.

TB

 

[Screwtop]

I might just try that for my next 10 brews Mike and see how I go, Im still getting 75-80+% but could get a bit more .. Is it worth it unless im getting constant shithouse eff?

:icon_cheers: CB

CB it's worth it if it suits you, fly/continuous sparging is just easier with my gear and I like to maximise efficiency. When I first started out 60% - 65% was the order of the day for the first 4 or 5 brews. Wasn't happy that my system/procedures gave such low efficiency, tried using different procedures and being the engineering type set about engineering a better system, tried varying procedures, double batch sparge, mash PH correction, hotter sparge water, longer boil (more water required through the grain), then equipment, changed mash tun then tried different types of manifold, efficiency was on the increase. Fly sparge came next and so did a good increase in efficiency, now over 80%. Slowed down the rate of sparge and reached 85%+. The major factors: raising sparge water temp to maintain mash out temp throughout the sparge process, mash PH and Fly sparging, to a lesser degree long slow sparge but still gave an increase of 2 or 3 points.

Had a few beers dinged by judges for astringency (strange what you miss in your beers until it's brought to your notice), dropped the sparge water temp to 83 and the astringency was less, so was efficiency. Now I use 5.2 adjuster in the mash and 80 sparge water and efficiency is usually around 80% - 82% for beers with OG up to 1.060 rolling off above that gravity (more grain same boil volume = less water through the grain).

I'm lazy, continuous sparging is easy, like being in the Army - "hurry up and wait". The real answer to this whole batch/fly conumdrum - Are you happy with your beers,? Does your sparging method make beer good enough for YOU? Are you satisfied with your results, if so then be happy don't change a thing. You would understand this notion well, you would have seen it hundreds of times, different chef - different way and each with a valid argument for doing it their way :lol:

Cheers mate,

Screwy

 

[clean brewer]

You would understand this notion well, you would have seen it hundreds of times, different chef - different way and each with a valid argument for doing it their way

The different Chef never has a valid argument from what I have to deal with.. <_<

I understand what you say, I guess I havnt made enough beer to know whether they could be better or not :unsure: , or someone needs to try them.... Would be good to try to see how effeciency goes though..

:icon_cheers: CB

 

[Lilo]

Timely post.

Ran my second Brew yeterday ( Flysparge / HERMS ). Numbers on first one last week were sensational. Yesterdays was incredible dissapointing.

Still getting used to my setups peculiarites and how to ensure temps and flow rates are spot on. (Forgot to add the 5-2 as well.)

Its all a big learning process and at least the only way is up ( I hope.)


Cheers
Lilo

 

[reVoxAHB]

I'm an old school fly-sparger and agree with everything Screwtop has noted.

Generally speaking, you'll find fly spargers do so for 1.) efficiency gain 2.) simplicity.

Batch spargers will negate 1.) with, "Life's too short to continuous sparge" (eg. they batch sparge because it's quicker and shortens the overall brewday) and suggest upping grain bill to compensate efficiency loss. I suppose this is OK assuming you don't mind tacking on a few extra $@ brew day, and know your efficiencies inside and out for accurate compensation.. or you're just throwing 15% more grain on top of each bill, regardless of style imo.

You don't do this with fly sparging as you are effectively going for maximum efficiency@ every brew, and with this logic, you're eliminating variables .

and 2.) simplicity . Yes, simplicity. Both camps tend to subscribe to their procedure as being simple. Both procedures are simple, but both require trackwork to flush out nuances specific to your gear (type/size falsie, braid, temps etc.)

One of my favourite sections in Palmer's How to Brew is his work with lauter tun design for both batch and fly sparging. He spent over a year conducting fluid flow experiments in aquariums, vector flow design, etc. I'd recommend you take a look at that in regard to your channelling concerns.

Also, Palmer recommends a flow rate of no more than 1L (0.946L) per minute for continuous sparging which is a good rule of thumb in my setup. An average batch for me requires a target 60L pre-boil which, not including recirc, puts me at 60 minute sparge time. Again, if you choose fly, you'll probably need some trackwork but by batch 3 or 4 you should start to recognise areas which can be tweaked and even corrected in the case of stuck sparge and/or channelling.

Best of luck,
reVox

 

[bulp]

Timely post.

Ran my second Brew yeterday ( Flysparge / HERMS ). Numbers on first one last week were sensational. Yesterdays was incredible dissapointing.

Still getting used to my setups peculiarites and how to ensure temps and flow rates are spot on. (Forgot to add the 5-2 as well.)

Its all a big learning process and at least the only way is up ( I hope.)


Cheers
Lilo

Hang in there Lilo, i still have off days now and again but getting more consistant every brew.

Oh yeah i fly sparge too, also find it easy but as everybody has said its all about personal preference and your own equipment and learning how to use it, lately have been getting consistant 82%-85%eff woo hoo. Good luck brewers.

 

[Beerbuoy]

Reading screwtops post I can see room for improvement in my fly sparge. For starters I am sparging with 76deg water, needs to be hotter to keep the mash temp up.

I'm going to give the batch sparge a go tomorrow (Smuto's GA). That way I can compare the two methods for myself. I don't mind if my efficency is not breaking records I'm just after consistency and I guess if its a bit more fool proof then thats a good thing. only way to find out is to try it.

3rd one Ian? Noice work.. :super: Any plans of getting down this way soon??

Hey Jody
Yep number 4 tomorrow.
Not sure when I'll be down your way next. Never really know but I'll PM you if I am heading down. If your looking for someone to try your beers I'm sure I could manage. I'm no beer judge but anything to help out.

 

[Pumpy]

Reading screwtops post I can see room for improvement in my fly sparge. For starters I am sparging with 76deg water, needs to be hotter to keep the mash temp up.

I'm going to give the batch sparge a go tomorrow (Smuto's GA). That way I can compare the two methods for myself. I don't mind if my efficency is not breaking records I'm just after consistency and I guess if its a bit more fool proof then thats a good thing. only way to find out is to try it.

BeerBuoy , When Batch sparging

I have found that when I add the sparge water the mash is not always up to 75.6 C

if you can use an immersion heater when you add your sparge water to ensure the mash is up to 75.6 C
( when using an immersion heater always keep it moving in te mash as it can scorch or burn the grain)

You will find all these little things will improve your efficiency ,it is not just the crush of the grain , its ensuring you dont have doughballs , temperature control ,maybe a 90 minute mash ,giving the 10 mins after adding the before draining the mash .

dont believe the temp on the dial thermometer 'always verify the temperature by using a conventional thermometer' .

As ReVox says 'There is more than one way of skinning a cat' .

Pumpy

 

[Beerbuoy]

I've just been tweaking beersmith to try the batch sparge and I need to confirm the process.

1. Mash as normal
2. Mashout, raise mash temp tp 75.6 for 10 min.
3. add 3lt water at 75.6 as per beersmith, then recirculate and drain the mash tun.
4. add another 11lt water at 75.6 mix the grain, recirculate and drain again.

Does this sound right??