Article on Over-Hopped Craftbeer

[dago001]

Kind of agree here bum, although its my 18 yo daughter who tests all my new beers for me. But my biggest critics are still females who arent family members. I think it is important to get non beer drinkers to try something different. After all, without stereotyping, most female beer drinkers are more Corona/TED type drinkers. Im lucky I guess, my girls like craft beer and can tell the difference. Anyhoo, the genereal reference was stating that females (chicks/girls) are only into fashion is a little "old".
I think the biggest untapped market for craft beer in Australia is the female market.
As for a beer at 60IBU - cant really comment on that, as I have only tried a few. But I am sure that it is the same as brewing a lager - you need good techniques to get it right every time. I should brew one soon to try it again.
Cheers
LagerBomb (sitting here enjoying a "Black Sheeps Imperial Russian Stout"

 

[pcmfisher]

I suppose the craft breweries could turn out only 15ibu tasteless lagers to attract mega swill drinkers.

That would be exciting now, wouldn't it?

 

[manticle]

@pcmfisher:

So on the one hand there's tasteless, presumably pale, low hopped lagers and on the other there is DIPA?

The point of the article, whether or not you agree is not that at all. Doppelbock, ESB, saison, biere de garde, Dubbel, Tripel, weizen, porter, wee heavy, pumpkin ale, kriek, Kolsch, alt* etc, ad nauseuam are not often/usually hop driven beers and are a far cry from your proffered commercial alternative. there are so many others. Where the author falls down a little, as bum points out is that breweries ARE brewing many of these styles. Homebrewers are often the worst when it comes to the whole 'needs more hops' phenomenon.

Personally I think some breweries and more to the point craft consumers can sometimes get stuck in that mindset of the more hopped the better or more IBU = good but I do see a lot of alternatives out there and only more arriving.

Even considering a couple of relatively easily obtainable US breweries we see here: Sierra have a porter and keller for example, Ballast point has a porter, the list continues. I think there is/has been a focus on hops to a degree but that is slowly changing.

Hops are just an easily distinguishable flavour that people can easily pick. There is a world of beer out there - some craft, some traditional/historical

*Some alts are highly bittered and some late hopped but as a style, it is is a long way from imperial aipas.

Please, please, please will people stop presuming all lagers are bland megaswill. There are some great pale lagers out there and some superb dark ones that have as much flavour as any ale you'd care to name. Get a Salvator intoya

 

[JDW81]

Please, please, please will people stop presuming all lagers are bland megaswill. There are some great pale lagers out there and some superb dark ones that have as much flavour as any ale you'd care to name. Get a Salvator intoya

Bravo Manticle.

I have long been a fan of a well brewed, low hopped lager and am often frustrated by the fact that lager is automatically acquainted with VB/New/XXXX etc.

 

[dago001]

I suppose that one of the things we as homebrewers on this site see a lot of, is talk about hops, IPA's and hop related issues. And when there are reviews of a new brewery or beer, the beer that everyone talks about predominantly is an IPA. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel (this is my opinion only) a lot of this comes down to peer pressure.
Hardly any reviews of a Lager/Dark Lager Kolsch, etc appear on this site. When a review of something not bitter or hoppy is posted, the naysayers jump on board and bag the beer as bland etc. Post a review about a Lager and you better have your flame suit on.
I agree with bum as well about many breweries having varied styles, but they rarely get a mention on here, but somebody releases a new hopped up IPA style and everyone is on it.
Maybe we have a new subcategory of the Beer Snob - The IPA Snob.
One of our local brewers who went commercial a few years ago, has 3 brews. A stout, an English Bitter and an Irish Red. Smart move, as he could see that an IPA would be hard to sell on a commercial scale here in Tassie (although I have taken this at face value, he has never actually said this to me, only implied).
The bulk of the populace does not like overly bitter beer.
Cheers
Lagebomb

 

[warra48]

In my 6 years of brewing AG I have brewed about 6 or so batches of AIPA. In my view, I've only ever really nailed it once to get it right with great balance between malt and hops. It's not an easy style, and a beer that just tastes of hops and nothing else is not a pleasure to drink.

I do like APA as a style, and will continue to brew them, but only up to about 40 or so IBU's. Any more than that, and they tend to go out of balance.

On the other hand, I also love malt forward and malt complex beers. One of my current favourites is a Brown Porter, with great malt complexity, and only about 27 IBU from a single 60 minute addition; it's a beautiful beer.

I continue to try to nail a great Hefeweizen. I've brewed at least a dozen or so batches, but only nailed it only once to the level I'm looking for. And they only have an IBU up to about 20 maximum.

For me, variety is what it's all about, but no matter what I brew, a balanced brew is very important to make it a really enjoyable drink.

I agree with Bribie G and his observations as to what he likes in a beer. To me, the best beer on tap at my golf club is JS 150 lashes. It has enough malt to interest me, and subtle hop flavour with just enough bitterness dancing on the finish. I'll bet trying to emulate that in a homebrew is difficult.

Really, there must be only a very small niche market for ridiculously hopped beers where you taste nothing but hops, and your taste buds are beaten into submission for the next week. I think that may be the point of the original article?

 

[Nick JD]

9 out of 10 VB drinkers don't know it's a lager they're drinking.

In order to develop a healthy craftbrewing industry, said industry needs to consider its evolving market much more carefully than most are doing or the industry will remain niche.

I dream of a time where 50% of beer drinkers are familiar with 50% of beer styles. Imagine what the shelves of liquorland would look like?

 

[manticle]

I dream of making love to multiple beautiful women.

I also sometimes dream of being at school with no pants on, losing all my teeth and occasionally spiders coming out of the walls and trying to bite me.

 

[Nick JD]

I dream of making love to multiple beautiful women.

It's overrated.

 

[KingKong]

It's overrated.

Said no man.. ever.

 

[wbosher]

I also sometimes dream of...<snip>... losing all my teeth....

Me too. It's a bloody terrifying dream.

 

[warra48]

Last night I dreamed my wife ran her blue BMW into my maroon convertible Bentley.
T'was very sad, until I woke.

Alright, so that's OT, but I've already posted a substantive response in this thread.

 

[black_labb]

I guess a big part of the problem is also the availability. Many breweries try to do a bit more with maltier styles but they are often unavailable in pubs and bottleshops in favour of the hoppier variety. I know some non brewer beer nerds that love to talk about hops, but know nothing else about the beer. It's kind of like ordering a meal based on the sauce on it, the sauce being the hops. They're the people buying the craft beers around.

@pcmfisher:

So on the one hand there's tasteless, presumably pale, low hopped lagers and on the other there is DIPA?

The point of the article, whether or not you agree is not that at all. Doppelbock, ESB, saison, biere de garde, Dubbel, Tripel, weizen, porter, wee heavy, pumpkin ale, kriek, Kolsch, alt* etc, ad nauseuam are not often/usually hop driven beers and are a far cry from your proffered commercial alternative. there are so many others. Where the author falls down a little, as bum points out is that breweries ARE brewing many of these styles. Homebrewers are often the worst when it comes to the whole 'needs more hops' phenomenon.

Personally I think some breweries and more to the point craft consumers can sometimes get stuck in that mindset of the more hopped the better or more IBU = good but I do see a lot of alternatives out there and only more arriving.

Even considering a couple of relatively easily obtainable US breweries we see here: Sierra have a porter and keller for example, Ballast point has a porter, the list continues. I think there is/has been a focus on hops to a degree but that is slowly changing.

Hops are just an easily distinguishable flavour that people can easily pick. There is a world of beer out there - some craft, some traditional/historical

*Some alts are highly bittered and some late hopped but as a style, it is is a long way from imperial aipas.

Please, please, please will people stop presuming all lagers are bland megaswill. There are some great pale lagers out there and some superb dark ones that have as much flavour as any ale you'd care to name. Get a Salvator intoya

It would be nice to have more good lagers brewed locally, but I don't see it being particularly feasable due to the energy costs of cold fermenting and lagering in much of the country. The higher ferment temp of ales is better suited to the climate here, and the quick turnaround is another plus.

I would love to see them becoming more available, but it's not very likely for a brewery to see the need for it.

 

[pcmfisher]

@pcmfisher:

So on the one hand there's tasteless, presumably pale, low hopped lagers and on the other there is DIPA?

The point of the article, whether or not you agree is not that at all. Doppelbock, ESB, saison, biere de garde, Dubbel, Tripel, weizen, porter, wee heavy, pumpkin ale, kriek, Kolsch, alt* etc, ad nauseuam are not often/usually hop driven beers and are a far cry from your proffered commercial alternative. there are so many others. Where the author falls down a little, as bum points out is that breweries ARE brewing many of these styles. Homebrewers are often the worst when it comes to the whole 'needs more hops' phenomenon.

Personally I think some breweries and more to the point craft consumers can sometimes get stuck in that mindset of the more hopped the better or more IBU = good but I do see a lot of alternatives out there and only more arriving.

Even considering a couple of relatively easily obtainable US breweries we see here: Sierra have a porter and keller for example, Ballast point has a porter, the list continues. I think there is/has been a focus on hops to a degree but that is slowly changing.

Hops are just an easily distinguishable flavour that people can easily pick. There is a world of beer out there - some craft, some traditional/historical

*Some alts are highly bittered and some late hopped but as a style, it is is a long way from imperial aipas.

Please, please, please will people stop presuming all lagers are bland megaswill. There are some great pale lagers out there and some superb dark ones that have as much flavour as any ale you'd care to name. Get a Salvator intoya

Yes I know there are non hop driven beers. I also know there are breweries that do make this style.

As you pointed out, neither a Saison nor an IPA taste anything like mega swill beer I have tasted.

I was not saying all lagers are bland mega swill.

What I meant was why would a small brewery produce a beer that tastes like Bud Light to attract Bud Light drinkers?

They probably could but why would they?

Roll on the beers with taste, be it hops or malt.

 

[manticle]

I think it would be remarkably silly to try and make bud lite. I thought the point of the article was not to make bud but make beer bud drinkers will enjoy. Not sure I think that is the best way to approach making good beer myself but there you go.

 

[dago001]

Nobody was insinuating that craft breweries should brew light lagers. The article was implying that big hoppy beers won't "convert" bud lite drinkers over to craft beer, which I personally agree with.
If they did brew a bud lite style and attracted a huge amount of drinkers, maybe craft beers would come down in price (clutches for a packet of straws).
Anyway, after all the discussion here, i have today brewed my second on IPA. Its been a while since the last one (2 years or so), so who knows, maybe I will be a convert.
Cheers
LagerBomb

 

[BeerNess]

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/05/lazy-beer-writers-are-ruining-craft.html is quite a well written argument against some of the points in that article...

Yesterday morning, I began skimming The Social Medias over coffee when an article titled "Against Hoppy Beers - Hops Enthusiasts Are Ruining Craft Beer for the Rest of Us" appeared on my Twitter doorstep like so much flaming poop in a paper bag. I knew it was going to be trollbait when I saw that headline, but the bait was too strong. I read it. And as I did, my blood pressure rose, the sarcastic quips and exasperated rebuttals soon piling up in my mind.

Normally, I just forget about this sort of click-bait "journalism" after a few minutes. The article — by Adrienne So, appearing on Slate.com — was intended to get people's attention, to get people talking, and it succeeded at that. Here I am, hours later, taking the time to write out this rebuttal. But this particular article bugged me more than most of the sloppy beer journalism that's sloughed off by big mainstream publications, who typically assign wine writers to elaborate on beer styles they don't even enjoy. Maybe these lazy articles are just building up over time — a crust of stale, uniformed laments. But in this case, from an author who says that she likes hoppy beers herself, it's not just the laziness or ignorance of brewing techniques that bothers me: it's the missed opportunities. Where there was an chance to open dialogue about why people like what they like, Adrienne So's Slate piece instead enters a bizarre, misguided blame game. It starts right there in the title: Hops Enthusiasts Are Ruining Craft Beer for the Rest of Us. And so the message seems to be: You should feel bad for liking what you like so much, because not everyone likes it. Sadly, this is the common thread with many of these articles. Rather than admit their tastes are simply different from others, writers too often try to cast their preferences as some fault of the thing they don't enjoy. If only IPAs tasted more like fermented grapes...

Let's peel back each layer of why this is so ridiculous, one by one.

1. First, apply this thesis to, well, anything else. Replace hops with "chocolate" and craft beer with "cupcakes." Imagine you had a friend complaining that they couldn't enjoy their blueberry lemon-swirl cupcake because chocolate cupcakes were just too popular. The horror.

2. Beyond starting with a misguided accusation, the article ultimately fails because it offers no helpful dialogue — there's no concrete, addressable problem identified, and therefore no solution. Is the author suggesting that IPA-drinkers should try to like what they like a little less? "Please stop enjoying IPAs so much"? It's hard to complain about any one style of beer being too beloved these days when we live in the most diverse era of beer styles and beer variety in history. Let's appreciate the craft beer Renaissance, rather than bitching that a couple styles are having slightly more of a Renaissance than forty other styles.

3. Again, to be clear: not everyone is required to like everything. That's fine. No one should think less of you for not enjoying hoppy beers. And this is not exclusive to hop-heads, or sour-heads, or stout-heads, or Grätzer-heads, or whatever. There are plenty of beer styles to go around, and plenty of room in the beer-world for those who don't enjoy them. Let's work on making people understand how varied beer is, rather than fearing their prejudices.

4. Sadly, the article misses the opportunity to address some issues that might be real. A complaint could be lodged about bars that lack appropriate diversity in their menu. If your taplist is almost entirely any one style of beer, and it's not some special event, sure, you'll alienate some drinkers. That's just poor planning. Likewise, most half-assed, half-craft bars are simply disappointing by nature, and likely always will be, loaded with their mass-market wheat beers. A bar with a couple old, stale IPAs is no fun for anyone, Hop Heads included. But such is life. Casting the blame on hop lovers doesn't help anything.

5. It would be absolutely legitimate to complain that some breweries put out IPAs simply because it's a popular style, because those brewers think they have to. Chances are, those IPAs aren't going to be very good. Don't brew beer you aren't passionate about — now there's a case you could make that's relevant and necessary.

6. The beer world moves fast, and so far as I can tell, diversity has usually been the result. For example: I can't think of a single brewery that makes exclusively IPAs (The Alchemist doesn't count). I'm sure there must be one or two out there at this point. However, off the top of my head, I can think of breweries focusing in plenty of other styles exclusively. Stillwater, Funkwerks, The Bruery, Logsdon Farmhouse Ales, and many others brew almost exclusively Belgian and farmhouse inspired beers, with nary a double IPA to be found. Jolly Pumpkin brews a dozen delectable sours, and bottles nothing else. Are we going to start complaining about the over-use of Belgian yeast next? It's a big, diverse market, with literally thousands of breweries in the U.S. alone. To imply that hops have some sort of monopoly can be nothing but an exaggeration.

7. The Slate article also implies that the popularity of IPAs is in jeopardy if we don't all calm down. We're scaring people. Yet all the evidence seems to point to hoppy beers growing more popular, and more accepted — how does that work, then? So far as my research has revealed, the Illuminati is not funneling millions of advertising dollars to push IPAs on the unwilling masses. The government is not giving secret tax cuts to The Alchemist to prop up Heady Topper's success. (Thanks, Obama!) If IPAs are popular, it's an organic popularity. And it's a hard-earned, underdog popularity. (Unlike, say, Blue Moon, which has a mega-corporation and millions of dollars behind it, and can afford to build artificial popularity over time by simply being everywhere). Thirty years ago, hardly anyone would touch a hoppy beer. IPAs had to fight to be accepted, much less consumed, much lesspopular. And now they're too popular? You think Hop Heads are just pulling your leg? Choking down bitter beers just to convince you to like them? No, the passion is genuine, and it's not going anywhere.

8. What really saddens me — the ultimate missed opportunity in starting a flamewar like this — is the effort that could have instead been spent educating people. For all its casting of blame, that silly article was the only thing hurtful to craft beer. It told people to be narrow-minded, to set up boundaries rather than broaden horizons. Don't do that. You don't have to like hoppy beers; really, it's fine. Some people will never be okay with bitterness at any level. But as with any style, not all IPAs are created equal — you'd be amazed how much variation there can be.

The author makes the common mistake of correlating IBUs with hop flavor, even making the totally inaccurate insinuation that because the human threshold for IBUs drops off at a certain point, Hop Heads are just wasting their flavor potential on most hoppy brews. Humans do have a threshold for bitterness (around 80 to 100 IBUs), and it's true that hops provide bitterness, along with flavor. But that doesn't mean hop flavor levels out on every beer over a certain IBU level — that's not how it works, at all. This is important, Beer Writers and Mainstream Journalists of America, and I too often see it confused, so take note: hop bitterness (IBUs) and hop flavor are not the same thing. Hops provide bitterness, and hops provide flavor, and they can provide both, or one or the other. It's up to the technique and skill and preference of the brewer. The author had a great chance to lay out what makes a beer bitter, and what hops can taste like other than bitter. What do hop lovers love about hops, after all? Why is the style so popular? Those who don't understand this passion often think of IPAs as harsh, grating beers overloaded with vegetal preservatives, rather than the nuanced, fruity, exotic elixirs the rest of us enjoy. Rather than casting blame on those that enjoy them too much, one could illuminate the many ways hops can be used — clarifying that you can brew IPAs that are full of hop flavor and hardly any bitterness. Believe it or not, you might even convert a few new Hop Heads this way.

Since the author relies on anecdotal evidence, so will I: I've brewed beers that, on paper and by quantity, were exceedingly hoppy, but I brewed them in such a way that even my hop-fearing friends enjoyed them — and never once described them as "bitter" when asked. Focus on the flavor, and what brings that flavor, and you'll grow the ranks of beer lovers. When you've shown them something different, explain why it was different, and what they should look for in the future. With new hop varieties and new flavors appearing all the time, there's something for everyone. The best way to alienate people is to make them feel bad — no matter what kind of beer you, or they, enjoy.

 

[tricache]

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/05/lazy-beer-writers-are-ruining-craft.html is quite a well written argument against some of the points in that article...

Love it!!! What a reply!

 

[jlm]

i have today brewed my second on IPA. Its been a while since the last one (2 years or so), so who knows, maybe I will be a convert.
Cheers
LagerBomb

Gasp!!!! You've changed man.

 

[Adr_0]

Cool, both good articles. The last couple of paragraphs of the Bear-Flavoured article were spot on: why not use a publication as a chance to educate people or provide a solution?

I do definitely think that the Seppos are hop crazy. That's ok, and that same drive has created some great innovations of the years... but I don't like this whole "English Mild... AMERICAN style" thing they have going. Even the BJCP guidelines on some of these (English, for e.g.) beers seem to be Americanised, i.e. push the hop profile more. The "black" India "Pale??" ale is another example of this.

Like most things in life, there is tension or disappointment when expectations are out of whack. If a Bud/VB drinker is expecting a light lager when they sip that IIPA they are in for a world of hurt. But, the person who pours that frosty one (mmm, Fosters) needs to throw a massive disclaimer in there, give some background, what to expect, etc. They may change their mind before they ask for it. Or they may go "Geez, that's full on, do you have anything else?" Expectations getting closer to being aligned = greater chance for happiness.