All froth & no bubble

[TwoDogs]

Hi all, geeee'z I'm having some problems with my first keg. All froth and no bubble. Using 4mm beer line 1.5 m long, serving at 10 psi. Seems to be a lot small bubbles in the line. At the moment I do not have a temperature control unit fitted (should be here in a few days).
I know many people have had the same problem. I've tried everything and I know you are all sick of hearing about it, BUT, I'm so frusrtrated and don't have any beer to cry in.
Is the temp control so critical?

 

[Grok]

Absolutely yes, its why pubs and breweries have expensive cold chilled font systems at the bar, if the temp changes to warmer from keg to tap, then co2 gas is going to be released from the beer in the line, and that creates foam. If you want good pouring, you must have good temp control all the way.
I ended up settling on a Pluto beer gun living inside the fridge, that way everything is cold, open the fridge door, do a quick pour, shut the door, job done.
A converted old fridge/freezer does the job nicely. Cut the freezer floor out and rewired the fridge fan to run all the time for recirculation, then used one of the original wire grate shelves for the beer gun and drip tray to sit on, fan goes off when the top (serving door) is opened. This system works well for me, and the fridge didn't cost me a cracker from the roadside curb shop...... fits up to 6 corny kegs down below.

 

[golfandbrew]

A fridge shouldn't need temp control for serving.

where is your keg and how did you go about carbonating the beer in it?

 

[fifis101]

Sounds like there's not enough back pressure. The quickest thing to try is a longer beer line. I've used beer line calculators before and I've always needed to make them longer. I bet it'll go away if you add an extra metre.

 

[MHB]

There are two things you need to know before you can even start asking the question.
The pressure and the temperature.
Without knowing both any answer is just noise. You don’t need a temperature controller for most fridges. But measuring the temperature is vital. As fridges go up and down a bit you really need the average temperature, so you would be best off putting a thermometer in a glass of water, letting it stabilise over night, then taking a reading.
Also worth noting is that a domestic fridge can be 5ºC different over the height of a common keg. Yes that too will matter. A small fan just to homogenise the temperature throughout is the best solution.

Measure your temperature, convert the pressure into a sensible unit (kPa or Bar/Atmospheres), then come back with the question.

Have a read of Bottling Kegging and Serving and you will need the carbonation tables too; if you really want to understand what is going on.
Mark

 

[TwoDogs]

Sounds like there's not enough back pressure. The quickest thing to try is a longer beer line. I've used beer line calculators before and I've always needed to make them longer. I bet it'll go away if you add an extra metre.

I think you're onto it fifis. Spoke to a supplier in Melb.yesterday and he suggested the same thing. Will let you know how it goes. Thanks mate.

 

[TwoDogs]

There are two things you need to know before you can even start asking the question.
The pressure and the temperature.
Without knowing both any answer is just noise. You don’t need a temperature controller for most fridges. But measuring the temperature is vital. As fridges go up and down a bit you really need the average temperature, so you would be best off putting a thermometer in a glass of water, letting it stabilise over night then taking a reading.
Also worth noting that a domestic fridge can be 5ºC different over the height of a common keg. Yes, that too will matter. A small fan just to homogenise the temperature throughout is the best solution.

Measure your temperature, convert the pressure into a sensible unit (kPa or Bar/Atmospheres), then come back with the question.

Have a read of Bottling Kegging and Serving and you will need the carbonation tables too; if you really want to understand what is going on.
Mark

As I stated the pressure is at 10psi, the temperature fluctuates, probably due to the cold mornings and warm days. Thats why i have decided on a temp. control unit. Have checked out all the carbonation tables, can't get it right because of fluctuating temperature. Hope to have it all under control today. Thanks Mark.

 

[TwoDogs]

A fridge shouldn't need temp control for serving.

where is your keg and how did you go about carbonating the beer in it?

Keg is in the fridge. Filled the keg, gassed it up to 40psi, into the fridge for 5 days. Gave it a roll around on the floor after 2 days. I was told to do these things by a local brew shop. Not sure if it is right or wrong. At the moment keg is sitting in the fridge, disconnected, looking a bit sad like myself.

 

[Feldon]

Gave it a roll around on the floor after 2 days. I was told to do these things by a local brew shop. Not sure if it is right or wrong.

Lucky to have a home brew shop that gives matrimonial advice for those crucial few days after the wedding.

But regarding your questions, why do you ask, Two Dogs?

 

[Meddo]

Bubbles appearing while the beer is sitting in the lines is because there's not enough pressure for the carbon dioxide to remain in solution -

• The pressure is the same as the carbonation pressure but the temperature of the beer in the lines is higher
• The temperature is the same as when carbonated but the serving pressure is lower than carbonation pressure
• Both the above

In your case, I'd suggest that the beer was heavily overcarbonated in the first instance and since the serving pressure is now lower the carbon dioxide is coming out of solution - both in the keg and the beer lines. 40 psi of carbonation pressure for five days will result in beer carbonated to 40 psi, typically "burst" carbonation at high pressures is done for a much shorter period of time (and it's a thumb-suck how long that time should be). Five days should be plenty to fully carbonate your beer at serving pressures, if you've got that much time available it's much simpler to do it that way and avoid the risk of over-carbonation.

I made a similar mistake once or twice when starting out, I don't have a link handy but there's a youtube video of an American bloke in a garage fixing this problem that should be fairly easy to find - search for "how to fix overcarbonated beer keg" or something along those lines and you should find it. From memory it involved hooking gas up to the beer post to bubble gas through the beer from the base (via the beer diptube) to strip the excess carbonation out. There's potential issues with this - loss of aroma and head retention - but put it down to a learning experience. I would think (never tried it) that your other option would be to attach a spunding valve to the gas post on your keg set to the serving pressure and wait for the CO2 to come out of the beer and release over time, I've got no idea how long this would take but I'd speculate at maybe a few days to a week.

FYI the carbonation level in your beer at 2.7 bar (40 psi) (assuming say 5 degrees in your fridge) is extremely high at around 10 g/L (5 volumes), which is above even the upper range of a hefeweizen. It'll be extremely difficult to serve a beer with this CO2 content on a home system, no matter how much restriction you add by increasing the beer line length or using the typical Perlick-style flow control. Maybe Mark @MHB has some thoughts on this but I would speculate that it's due to the small ID beer lines typically used and the high surface area to cross-section ratio resulting in more turbulence in the lines making the CO2 come out of solution. I now use short 7mm ID lines and quality German or ball-style flow-control taps (mounted inside the fridge to stay cold) and have much better results with high-carb beers than I ever achieved with long 5mm ID lines and Perlick-style (Intertap) flow control taps.

 

[Grok]

taps (mounted inside the fridge to stay cold) and have much better results with high-carb beers than I ever achieved with long 5mm ID lines

Agreed! A low cost and practical solution for home brew keg setup. See #2 post.
I have a kegerator, but had a devil of a time trying to get it to pour properly, but since doing the "all in the fridge thing" , I have no issues at all, and I tend to like high carb levels in my beers.

 

[Meddo]

Agreed! A low cost and practical solution for home brew keg setup. See #2 post.
I have a kegerator, but had a devil of a time trying to get it to pour properly, but since doing the "all in the fridge thing" , I have no issues at all, and I tend to like high carb levels in my beers.

Yep - cold beer + cold taps + cold glasses + beer carbonated no higher than serving pressure is a great way to keep the CO2 where it belongs, then work the tap to get the amount of foam you desire.

 

[feboy]

Keg is in the fridge. Filled the keg, gassed it up to 40psi, into the fridge for 5 days. Gave it a roll around on the floor after 2 days. I was told to do these things by a local brew shop. Not sure if it is right or wrong. At the moment keg is sitting in the fridge, disconnected, looking a bit sad like myself.

what Meddo said^^. I am always amazed at the detail you regulars put into your responses. This is the reason I can get trapped reading beer tips for hours….got to search "how to fix overcarbonated beer keg" now for the next time I over do it

 

[Meddo]

How'd you go @TwoDogs, get it sorted?

 

[Mickchap]

Absolutely yes, its why pubs and breweries have expensive cold chilled font systems at the bar, if the temp changes to warmer from keg to tap, then co2 gas is going to be released from the beer in the line, and that creates foam. If you want good pouring, you must have good temp control all the way.
I ended up settling on a Pluto beer gun living inside the fridge, that way everything is cold, open the fridge door, do a quick pour, shut the door, job done.
A converted old fridge/freezer does the job nicely. Cut the freezer floor out and rewired the fridge fan to run all the time for recirculation, then used one of the original wire grate shelves for the beer gun and drip tray to sit on, fan goes off when the top (serving door) is opened. This system works well for me, and the fridge didn't cost me a cracker from the roadside curb shop...... fits up to 6 corny kegs down below.
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I have the Pluto gun as well and everything is in the fridge nice and cold. I just did my first keg as well and too much froth. I carbonated for 48 hours at 32 PSI. I was told by the home brew shop that was the way to do it but I don’t know if I overcarbonated the keg

 

[Grok]

32psi sounds a bit much, but it depends on the psi starting point and how cold and exposure time and agitation to the high psi. I do pressure fermenting and need very little adjustment for serving, usually around 15psi (1Bar).
You need to strike a balance between hose length, constant beer temperature and gas psi, it can take a bit of tweaking, but once there the rewards are easy pouring.
Consistent brewing methodology brings less problems with the hardware.

 

[Mickchap]

32psi sounds a bit much, but it depends on the psi starting point and how cold and exposure time and agitation to the high psi. I do pressure fermenting and need very little adjustment for serving, usually around 15psi (1Bar).
You need to strike a balance between hose length, constant beer temperature and gas psi, it can take a bit of tweaking, but once there the rewards are easy pouring.
Consistent brewing methodology brings less problems with the hardware.

Well I’m at a loss. Not really sure what to do next. I’m not new to brewing but I’m new to kegging and all this psi pressure etc etc etc. If its over carbonated which I think it is, how do I go about fixing that? I went to the brew shop on the way to work today and explained it to them and they said to set the PSI to around 7-10 and every now and again for the next few days release the pressure on the keg. He said that PSI is not enough to carbonate any more but it will push out the carbonation providing I release it a few times a day.

 

[Grok]

That info is ok, it takes a bit of time to adjust down, but also, you want the beer and glass as cold as possible, around 2 C , what temp in the fridge?

 

[Mickchap]

The fridge sits around 2-4 degrees

 

[Grok]

Right, well maybe check your keg, hose and tap fittings for anything that might create turbulence as the liquid flows past and maybe.
Check that the fridge is actually obtaining that 2 C through out with an independent temp gauge.
I find it is easier to come up to serving pressure than lower it, but you have to allow the time for reaction to take effect.
Is it pouring really fast as well, or just frothy?