Ahb Wiki: The No-chiller Method / Using A Cube

[white.grant]

Jamil told me this morning that DMS occurs in Pilsener malts particularly, (this was in the dunkelwiezen podcast) and suggested a longer boil.


edit too slow - what PoMo said....

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Pinched this from another thread

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The BJCP guide in its yeast section has some interesting notes;

"DMS

DMS, or dimethyl-sulfide produces the aroma and taste of cooked vegetables, notably corn, celery, cabbage or parsnips. In extreme cases, it may even be reminiscent of shellfish or water in which shrimp has been boiled. DMS is normally produced by the heat-induced conversion of S-methyl-methionine, but most of this evaporates during an open, rolling boil. A closed boil or slow cooling of the wort may therefore lead to abnormally high levels. Some DMS is also scrubbed out during a vigorous fermentation, which is why lagers and cold-conditioned ales may have slightly higher levels than warm-fermented ales. Wild yeast or Zymomonas bacteria may produce high enough levels of DMS to make the beer undrinkable. Low levels of DMS are appropriate in most lagers, particularly American light lagers and pre-prohibition pilsners, but are not desirable in any ale style."
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Seems to be an issue with lighter malts like pilsner

I haven't brewed enough with pilsner malt - and that which I've used has been JW

I'm not really in a position to comment re: DMS - just to say I haven't tasted it in my batches to date

Aren't only 20% of the population able to taste it?

Cheers

 

[Cortez The Killer]

My understanding of DMS is that it is driven off during the boil. By the time the boil is over, there is no more DMS to stay around. Where does the DMS go in a kettle chilled wort?

From a quick read - it seems to be produced while wort is hot - hence the recommendation of rapid wort chilling post boiling

But that's only from what I've read

Cheers

 

[Julez]

Great post, Cortez. I reckon the no-chill idea has a lot of merit. I used it for my first few AGs and it seemed to work well.

There is a good article on Google Books, from "The Brewer's Handbook", which I think gives the best summary of why NOT to no-chill. However, it seems many people are no-chilling very successfully.

"A long, slow cooling does not give a good cold break because more protein is trapped in suspension; this gives rise to a finer trub, chill haze, and harsh, sulfur-like aftertastes in the beer. Coarse trub is essential for good separation and good beer stability. In addition, a rapid cooling will minimize the development of dimethyl sulfide (DMS), which is more likely, to form when using lager malt. If the wort is reheated, cold trub will go back into solution, forming a chill haze."

Anyway, I think your wiki is excellent, even though I don't no-chill anymore. For someone looking to start up AG especially, it is a great method from which people are clearly getting good results.

Edit: However I have heard that to get a "proper cold break" with a chiller, you need to get the wort down close to 0 degrees, which I don't think many home-brewers can do anyway...

 

[Julez]

To reply to myself, from the same book:

"It is essential that the cold break be precipitated as much as possible, which is done by a very rapid cooling. The wort must be force-cooled to below 10C to secure a satisfactory break, and it precipitates best at 0 to 5C."

So you have to question whether this is really an argument in favour of the pro-chillers, since I don't think many people that are force-chilling can achieve this result.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

. . . .A long, slow cooling does not give a good cold break because more protein is trapped in suspension; this gives rise to a finer trub, chill haze, and harsh, sulfur-like aftertastes in the beer. Coarse trub is essential for good separation and good beer stability. In addition, a rapid cooling will minimize the development of dimethyl sulfide (DMS), which is more likely, to form when using lager malt. If the wort is reheated, cold trub will go back into solution, forming a chill haze. . .

The thing that is missed when relating a lot of the texts to the practice of no-chill - is time. There is lots of it on the side of the no-chiller.

So where the texts mention that the break forms better and bigger under rapid chilling - and that course trub is essential for good separation: The assumption is still that you are talking about pitching quite soon after brewing. Long and slow is assumed by the texts to be over a few hours or something like that; and then you pitch as soon as the wort is cool enough. Then there might well be a bunch of cold break in suspension, that will make it to the fermentor - where there is a fair amount of debate over whether it will make much difference at all.

But - no chill isn't like that - you don't necessarily pitch as soon as the wort is cool enough, you might pitch then, or you might do it the next day, the next week or the next month. The cold break still forms just the same as when you rapid chill, its just finer and doesn't settle as fast, but in a weeks time....its settled just fine. Then you leave it behind in the cube. Same for any hop or hot break trub that happened to make it into the transfer. Probably the clearest worts I have ever put into fermentors have been no-chill worts.

And when I chill with my plate chiller - all the cold break goes into the fermentor - every last bit. So as far as clean, cold break free wort goes, I'd say that no-chill is the superior method. Obviously better than a Plate or CF chiller - and I reckon most likely better than an immersion chiller as well. What those other things do pretty well and quickly, no-chill does very well, but slowly.

Of course, that doesn't address the DMS thing. But I've drunk a fair few NC beers over the last few years and only ever had one that I thought had DMS. I've had more DMS effected commercial beers in the same period of time.

Horses for courses really - I'm not usually a no chiller, but I have yet to see a really good argument that manages to thoroughly combine accepted brewing theory with the actual experience of No-Chilling, that gives it a thumbs down. So I use the technique when its convenient, and it works.

Good enough for me.

Thirsty

 

[///]

Gino

Ey, good to see my favourite time saving device be written so well. Unlike my ramblings...

As a note to the side diversions. Unsure how you would develop HSA filling the cube. I trust most folks have not seen how a grant runs in some of the old Euro breweries made by Huppman or Steinecker - those babies run hard! Also a pump at 40 HZ gets a commercial brew moving, so I cannot understand the worry.

Also, is the presumption is that S-methyl-methionine is high in all Pils malts? It may be present, but only some malts have the precursor in high enough levels to bear a notifiable profile. Pils malts from all the maltsters sold in Australia are very low in this fraction - and deliberately so as the Aussie big breweries seek to limit DMS in the final product. If you want high DMBS precursor (acromyn for S-methyl-methionine) you have to ask for it and the maltster has to produce it. ADM export all thier stock with high levels to Asia.

On the production brewing side, the fractions when in high enough numbers, will seek to form throughout the brewing operation and the wort must be treated like eggshells. The method most often used to get enough precursor is to let the wort stand for at least 30 minutes after flame-out to form the amount required. But, as per the previous paragraph, the fraction has to be high to begin with to ensure enough carry over to the final product.

For all the ney-sayers, I think we are up to about over our 2500-th hot filled wort pack by now... and no one has died ... or that we know! :huh:

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Thanks Scotty

That clears a few things up

I could expand the article to refute all the arguments against no-chilling - but I don't think that it is appropriate or necessary.

As Thirsty Boy says "I have yet to see a really good argument that manages to thoroughly combine accepted brewing theory with the actual experience of No-Chilling, that gives it a thumbs down"

I concur with this and am yet to find anything solid that actually demonstrates the short comings of the no-chill method based on currently accepted brewing theory and actual experience. The vast major of no-chill users report excellent results, with only a couple citing reduced hop aroma as a negative. Though this problem however is easily resolved at fermentation or kegging stages.

Also I've only stumbled across a handful a swollen cube stories, the majority of which have arisen due to rapid chilling of the cube and poor sanitation techniques. They are appear to occur at a fraction of the rate that infections during fermentation occur.

At the end of the day should the no-chill method not work for you, then don't use it. Should chilling not be a hassle for you then continue to use it. The way I see it the method is not only advantageous in allowing brewers to move into all grain brewing (just like BIAB has) and thereby increasing those pledging allegiance to the dark side, but also giving rise to a plethora of other benefits namely in storability and increased production with limited resources.

Thanks all for the positive feedback.

Cheers

 

[devo]

I used to think that the weird flavour is was getting in my lagers was DMS but I'm now more of the view that it was diacetyl all along due to inadequate resting. Reason being is that it was more of an annoying sweeter smell/flavour rather than cooked vegetables.

Eitherway Since setting up my 1000ltr water tank I've dragged out the old immersion chiller and moving back to chilling my brews when it comes to lagers.

 

[hillbillybreweries]

Hi Cortez,
the other question I had regarding the no chill message was about storage. Is there a risk of staling compounds and oxidation affecting how long you can keep your beer? Obviously several factors can affect this I.e. What grains are used , how the beer is handled over all, is it bottle conditioned and so on. The guys I know who are doing it in my club are newer brewers and not really keeping any of their beer. I just took out a bottle conditioned APA that was two years old. While the hop had dropped back a bit it was still ok. Do you keep your beers and try them over longer time periods?

 

[Cortez The Killer]

I can't really comment as my beers AG aren't around too long maybe 3 - 4 months at most in kegs

I tasted some of my early AG bottle beers not too long ago and while different from early days - they were still very drinkable

I imagine that there's other brewers out there who can comment on long term stability of their no-chill beer

Cheers

 

[mikelinz]

brillient Cortez.


Let me ask a question for discussion - why we cant no-chill in the kettle? Is it just because its not airtight? What if you can make your kettle air tight?

I have seen a kettle that has a lid that clamps on once the boil is finished.

 

[brettprevans]

I have seen a kettle that has a lid that clamps on once the boil is finished.

ala pressure cooker style. thats sorta what I was thinking. although putting into cubes will be much of a muchness I guess. Ive got a march pump so when its set up It wont bother what it gets pumped into.

 

[hillbillybreweries]

Hi Mike, yep guys in our club do seal up the boiler and leave it. Most of them drop the temp to at least below 80C and usually below 40C before they do it. I guess one way to figure it out is to to brew a large batch and wrack half to a cube and chill the other half and keep them to see how both evolve. Something I might try later when I get time.
In any case I guess that's why we all love this hobby always something new to discuss and try out.
Certainly heard that about the pils malt thing and heard that one Melbourne retailer had to change the malt used for their wort in a cube product for the reason discussed earlier in this thread.Once they did the problem was resolved as I understand it.

 

[PostModern]

The main benefit I get from no-chilling is the ability to fill a number of cubes with wort then ferment them whenever I have the fermenters empty or need more beer. Keeping it in the kettle seems a little bit dodgy to me. Cubes are sanitised by the heat, there is nothing in them to contaminate the beer, especially if you leave little or no headspace. I know the inside of my kettle has minute traces of worty hop gunk and whatnot in there. No matter how thorough my cleaning, even the batch in question will leave resude on the keg walls as the volume drops off during the boil. I doubt I'd be leaving cool wort in it for any length of time, but if you were to do it, put the seal on while the whole kettle is still at pastuerisation temps.

 

[hillbillybreweries]

Mostly if not chilled and wracked on brewday the wort only stays in the boiler for a day or so two tops. Haven't known of anyone having problems doing that and it's mainly if the yeast is not quiete ready to go yet that I would do that. Still mainly interested in how long your beer will keep using the no chill/cube method. At this point still do not have an answer on this point.

 

[PostModern]

Like Cortez, my beers don't last more than a month or so in the keg post-fermentation. I've had cubes kept for a few months before opening and pitching. I don't see how no-chilling could make oxidative pre-cursors.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I've got a little (5L) NC cube of Golden Strong wort sitting at the back of the fridge - where its been sitting for just over a year I think. One of these days when I have nothing much going on, I will throw some yeast at it and see what comes out.

I expect it will be fine

 

[katzke]

Just thinking here.

Any reason why a Cornelius Keg would not work? They cost more then the cubes but I have been lucky and get them for around $20US used.

There would be space on top but CO2 should fix that. That may cause an oxygen problem when pitching. I do not use oxygen now so that could be a stopper for me. With most of our plastics coming from China, and some of the problems we have had with contaminated products (dog food, tooth paste, lead in toys, what we have not been told about), adding boiling liquid to food grade stainless has a comfort factor.

I have a chiller so do not see using no chill very often. Also have extra kegs.

 

[warrenlw63]

I've had had a couple of pretty manky DMS-ridden pilsners using no-chill and Weyermann Pilsner malt. Never been a problem with local malts.

Warren -