Adventurous Brewers Wanted

[Zizzle]

Were you blind testing?

Well I know Pat probably got blind, but you know what I mean.

 

[Brad_G]

Were you blind testing?
Well I know Pat probably got blind, but you know what I mean.

Funny post :beer:

Blind? We could see the beers, but didnt know which one was which. Kegged patchs version of the ESB today, so we will be all ready for a little taste testing fun at the QLD Case swap. I cant wait.

Anyone started any tests? I will be doing the temp test later in the week now as work has come down on me like a ton of bricks.
brad

 

[dunkmac]

Funny post :beer:

Blind? We could see the beers, but didnt know which one was which. Kegged patchs version of the ESB today, so we will be all ready for a little taste testing fun at the QLD Case swap. I cant wait.

Anyone started any tests? I will be doing the temp test later in the week now as work has come down on me like a ton of bricks.
brad

amateur brewer doing an amateur test. i've split my american wheat batch. just bottled half & leaving other half to secondary ferment for another 7 days before bottling (fisrt & secondary ferments at same temp). we'll see if there is any dramatic diference between them.

dunk

 

[Brad_G]

Christmas Case Swap BIAB Vs Batch Sparge Test Results

Patch and myself brewed the same English Bitter in different locations 1 day apart, I sent patch all of my notes, times etc and he followed them using his BIAB method. They were fermented at the same temperatures, but in different locations.

Eight people were tested. They were given 3 glasses marked 1, 2 and 3. 2 samples of one beer were poured against 1 of the other. The idea of the test was to pick the odd one out and why.

Hoops got it absolutely correct and was confident with his findings. One other person got it correct too, but explained that there were differences with the other 2 beers (which were the same), so gathering that, there was not much confidence there.

The other six didnt succeed, and therefore could not see an obvious difference in the beers.

Findings:
These findings are based only on the results from one style of beer, so in no way can we say that there is consistant evidence for or against the following.
1) BIAB can produce the same results as Batch Sparge
2) That you can produce the same beer twice.
Saying this, I believe that discipline in brewing techniques can improve consistency in your brews.

Dunkler Dopplebock: Nice idea mate. Cant wait to hear the results of that one.

Please post any comments if you have them.

Brad

 

[stephen]

I was hoping that we'd end up with pairs from the same suburb/town. I imagine Les could do some stuff with Weizguy when Stephen returns and Damien should be able to find a brewing partner fairly close. InCider lives in the middle of nowhere! We'll come up with something that should work for anyone though.

Patch

I reckon that's a great idea. I will be back home by 15 DEC and will catch up with Les the Weizguy and see what we can offer to our fellow brewers in the search of science, truth and the Australian way. Since Les and myself have very similar brewing equiment the processes shouldn't be too dissimilar - even the water supply is the same!

Stay tuned to this post.

Stephen

 

[PistolPatch]

Sorry Stephen. I meant to reply ages ago but knew you were AWOL. (Hopefully you, Les, and I can discuss the below on Saturday )

The real excuse of not replying though is that Brad and I were thinking, "Let's just let that thread die!" due to the underwhelming interest - lol.

But, above we have some extremely good brewers who are totally enthusiastic and don't mind taking a risk so....

I'm going to try and write down something that really struck me today that will hopefully interest all of us here.

(I also must say that I am really struggling in writing this as I think I lack the brewing knowledge and experience to convey my thoughts correctly let alone concisely. My point is at the end though if you want to jump straight there )

'Mythbusters of Brewing'

The original idea of this thread was to create a sort of 'Mythbusters' of brewing. In other words, a thread that would answer the question, "What brewing variations/techniques should be of little or no importance to the majority of craftbrewers?" Or maybe, answer the question, "In what circumstances should a particular brewing technique or variation be considered important?"

After this morning, my enthusiasm in this idea to 'quantify' or 'value' variations and techniques has been restored.

One Example of A Technical Brewing Truth That Maybe a Myth for Most CraftBrewers

Those of you reading here will know that Brad and I did a side by side brew on batched beer versus bagged beer. In other words, a test on low liquor to grist ratio versus high liquor to grist ratio. The end result was that basically no one could tell the difference. From what I've read though, there should have been some difference and I honestly thought it would be noticeable. This perplexed me and also ThirstyBoy who had written on this. (One of the best-written posts I have ever seen on the forum.)

Furthermore, on the weekend, drK, who obviously has a high degree of grain chemistry knowledge also asked a question which we managed to answer after about 30 posts - lol. He expected that the full-volume brewing (such as BIAB) would have the effect of a more dextrinous wort (I think I know what that means ) and that the yeast attenuation would be less.

From the figures that the BIAB guys produced, it doesn't. (Looks like it's slightly higher actually.)

This had me further perplexed and I've been thinking all day on what I wrote there this morning....

Sometimes I wonder when I read things in the advanced textbooks. For example, they often say things like doing such and such will give you a maltier beer but they never seem to specify how much maltier. Is it 1% or 10% maltier? This may be of great concern to a commercial brewery but largely irrelevant to craftbrewers.

I sometimes find it very hard to work out what's important and what's not from the advanced books and articles.

The learning continues...

Personally, I found the above results amazing. I also think that it's important that newer brewers at whatever level are aware of the, 'importance level,' of a variaton or technique. (Badly written that!) But how many times do you see someone advising someone to use a liquid yeast (something I have never used as yet because I need to learn a lot of other stuff first) when the person has just finished their first kit? (An exaggeration of course but you get my drift.)

Or, of more relevance here, how many times do you read people quoting from textbooks but not also saying, " Yeah! This advice is spot on! I did this brew the other day and..."

Finally

The above is not as well-written as I'd hoped and may not even trigger any ideas. Sometimes when dealing with grey areas though you just have to put it out there the best way you can.

So, does anyone here know of any 'textbook' theories that they think would be worth testing to check their relevance to craft-brewing - are there any that need questioning?

Edit: Just had a crack at shortening this but ended up adding stuff so I think it's best I go to work now.

LOL (as always )
Pat

 

[Brewtus]

Take heart, I am waiting for Xmas to get my two secondaries so I can work on this. I have also been a bit busy with other things and my last two brews have had to have too much attention as they were over-heating.
With respect, you picked a busy time to start.
Don't kill the idea yet. I may be the evidence based research to beath life into Dane's wiki.

 

[Brewtus]

Take heart, I am waiting for Xmas to get my two secondaries so I can work on this. I have also been a bit busy with other things and my last two brews have had to have too much attention as they were over-heating.
With respect, you picked a busy time to start.
Don't kill the idea yet. I may be the evidence based research to beath life into Dane's wiki.

Well Xmas didn't help and 2 plastic jerry cans did not excite the kids imaginations. I finally bought them today so will start to try different things. As the wiki has had a rush and died a little, this may give me more to write about.

 

[Brewtus]

I had hoped this thread would lead to something interesting and a whole new range of interesting topics. So far it seems to have died.

Is anyone still keen to have a go? :huh:

I have a batch of kit lager, two 10 liter jerry cans and some Saaz pellets. I will rack half and half, dry hop one with 15g pellets. I will then test it on friends and others and let you know.

 

[PistolPatch]

Good on you Brewtus. Sorry I missed your last posts here somehow.

Brad and I should have probably come up with a better title for this thread but at least it has brought out the right people such as yourself and there are a few more I know of now that would be interested in this.

Maybe we should just use this thread a little bit longer until we get some more results in such as yours. Once we have this, maybe we can start a new thread better titled such as, 'Side by Side Brew Test Results,' or something a little better. 'Comparison Brewing' - I dunno.

For me personally, I think the quickest and most accurate way to learn about small changes in brewing is doing it this way.

I'm close to getting two sets of brewing equipment and will be able to do some great side by side tests very soon. (First one this weekend I think!)

Anyway, I'll chuck a link in to any other relevant threads I see here. We can then post our results here and soon we should have enough interesting stuff to get a new long-term, very valuable thread under way.

I'm sure that Les and Stuster can already probably post some interesting findings.

Don't you stop your writing Brewtus and sorry I haven't contributed to the wiki yet. I'll ge there one day!

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Where has Brad_G gone? Haven't heard from him for ages???

 

[Darren]

Ha, MYTHBUSTERS of brewing, the NEW science?

Lets break all the rules as we have encountered and before we have endeavored to understand them.

cheers

Darren

 

[PistolPatch]

Darren old son!

My goodness! I haven't re-read the thread for months now but we're not here to break any rules.

Nup, the point of this thread is to explore, first-hand, what small changes in the brewing process can make. Maybe occassionally we will try something outrageous but I imagine that wouldn't be too often.

I'm talking about small but significant things such as a few degrees difference in mash or fermentation temps, low versus high evaporation rates, or, like the one above, carbonation drops versus sugar priming.

It's basically trying to form a group of people whose opinion you trust and will report their results or better still, who are willing to send 2 bottles interstate for comparison and receive 2 bottles for comparison.

It's going to be a really good thing I reckon.

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[ant]

(pinched from an earlier post, but...)

Temperature effects on same yeast strain - Take a style where the yeast has different profiles at different temps (hefe?), same malt, hops, yeast, just fermented at bottom of recommended range, mid range, high end of range, started low and finished high...

AA% - What is the effect of high AA% hops in bittering profile? 4 brews hopped to same IBU using low through superhigh AA% hops... this one has me particularly interested; I've heard a bit about how high AA% hops produce a harsh bitterness, but never tried it.

Did my first batch in a few months with a fella over here on the weekend - double batch IPA, we've split it, pitched a new tube of the same yeast in each, and fermenting at different ends of the recommended range. Couple of weeks and we'll have an answer...

Good idea for a post. Like it. :super:

 

[bayWeiss]

(pinched from an earlier post, but...)

Temperature effects on same yeast strain - Take a style where the yeast has different profiles at different temps (hefe?), same malt, hops, yeast, just fermented at bottom of recommended range, mid range, high end of range, started low and finished high...

...snip...

Did my first batch in a few months with a fella over here on the weekend - double batch IPA, we've split it, pitched a new tube of the same yeast in each, and fermenting at different ends of the recommended range. Couple of weeks and we'll have an answer...

Good idea for a post. Like it. :super:

I do not know if you guys get the magazine "Zymurgy May/June07" in the land down under, but there was an article in it from Neva Parker at White Labs that chemically tested for compounds with a Perkin Elmer Gas Chromatograph in relatively low-ester yeast strains, using gravity and fermentation temperature as variables.

The compounds (yield) tested for were:
Propanol, Iso-amyl alcohol, Ethyl Acetate, Iso-amyl acetate, and diacetyl.

the yeasts were:
WLP001, WLP500, and a lager yeast WLP830

the original wort gravities were:
1.030, 1.044, 1.070

and the temperatures were:
68F/20C and 75F/24C for ale, 55F/12.8C and 68F/20C for lager

Pick up the mag for the in-detail article with charts and all... but to summarize-> original gravity had a huge effect (chemically and perception), and fermentation temperature had a large effect as well. The OG of the wort has a larger effect on the amount of compounds emitted from the yeast than did the particular temperature ranges tested.

So, this may save you guys one "adventurous" test.

:beer:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Ha, MYTHBUSTERS of brewing, the NEW science?

Lets break all the rules as we have encountered and before we have endeavored to understand them.

cheers

Darren

Hey now, you can arrogantly assume that people haven't bothered to try to understand the things that they plan to test, if you want... the assumption without any evidence would make you a bit of a dick... however you're free to do it.

BUT

You leave the damn Mythbusters alone !!! Their science may be dodgey and based mostly around making the loudest possible bang, but there are legions of pyromaniac young boys who will consider the option of a carreer in science as a result. all they have to do is work some ****ies into the show and there will be a run on the local physics department.

Besides, anyone who builds an even moderately successful rocket fueled by salami ... is beyond reproach.

 

[Brewtus]

I have racked 25l of lager (by yeast definition at this stage) made from Cascade golden harvest kit + 1.5kg coopers amber malt + 20g Saaz at 15min and 15g Saaz at 5min. Only the malt was boiled and kit added at flame out. Yeast (forgot to write it down) German lager yeast from BYO@H.

I racked to 2 x 12 lt jerries and dry hopped one with 10g of Saaz.

Will I be able to tell the difference?

Tell you in a month or so (not real lager until it is cold conditioned for a few months hey?).

 

[Brewtus]

First thing to report is the hopped batch fermented much more in the secondry. i.e. the unhopped batch had a little pressure after 3 days while the hopped one blew out the cheap plastic jerry can until it rolled over. I went to degas it and it all frothed up.

I guess I should have put an air lock on it or at least cling wrap but as it had been in the primary 2 weeks I though it would be ok. the unhopped one was OK. if I did put air locks on I might have missed the difference in bubbling.

 

[PistolPatch]

Nice to see a few guys are reading this thread and better still that a few guys are posting. That was an interesting post from Bayweiss and Brewtus, I would have never expected what you just wrotw - would have never predicted that!

I did my first side by side on twin equipment the other day - and it wasn't in an apartment :beerbang:

On this brew, I just varied the mashing regime by two degrees...

Brew A: 63 for 7 minutes, 65 for 14 minutes and 67 for the mash remainder.
Brew B: As above plus two degrees.

Once I work out which I like of the above, I'll then brew that and the second brew, I will mash at the mid temperature to see if I notice any difference between that and the mini-steps above.

Not very exciting tests for anyone else I suppose but I'll post the results.

After this I'm debating whether to drag out my batch-sparging gear so as I can do some batch versus BIAB brews or just do some other minor variations more relvant to all brewers.

For example, I'm getting lazy lately and have just been throwing my hop pellets straight into the kettle - not in a hopsock. This of course ads more trub and I syphon so I'm thinking I should test using the hopsock in one brew for the hops and then use it on the second brew, not for hops, but instead as a trub filter looking for differences in yield, clarity and maybe taste.

Anyway, that's what I'm up to and thanks to Brewtus and Bayweiss for 'testifying' as Les would say.


Pat

 

[discoloop]

Quite a timely thread, this one.

I bottled my first "lager" (K&K w/saflager) a couple of weeks ago. Lacking the necessary equipment to do a proper cold-condition, I bottled straight from primary.

Now they're all carbed-up, I've whacked several bottles in the fridge for a psuedo-CC. Will report back in a month or two with the side by side comparison of the lagered and no-lagered lagers...

 

[Brewtus]

First thing to report is the hopped batch fermented much more in the secondry. i.e. the unhopped batch had a little pressure after 3 days while the hopped one blew out the cheap plastic jerry can until it rolled over. I went to degas it and it all frothed up.

I guess I should have put an air lock on it or at least cling wrap but as it had been in the primary 2 weeks I though it would be ok. the unhopped one was OK. if I did put air locks on I might have missed the difference in bubbling.

After a week in the secondary, the hopped version is still producing far more gas than the non dry hopped version.

:unsure: