About To Try A Lager For The First Time

[jkeysers]

I've done a bit of reading around on the site, but I've found this to be quite a confusing subject, so I thought I would make sure I have all this right. I had a read on howtobrew.com, I just wanna make sure I have taken it all in.

OK. I have probly done about 30 brews so far, and things are progressing along nicely. All I have used so far though is Ale yeasts, never tried doing a Lager before. I figured I might as well take advantage of the cooler weather and give it a go, but I have a few questions. Sorry if they are stupid questions!

1. Can I add a Lager yeast to any old brew (Pilsner, Draught etc)? Or is Lager yeast only for Lager brews?

2. Can I re-use a Lagers yeast cake like I can with an Ales? I have a pretty specific brewing routine. Whereby I brew a FWK in the primary using a quality yeast, then when I rack it to the secondary, I chuck a basic K&K in the primary on top of the slurry and re-use its yeast. Can I do this with a Lager yeast? If so, at what temp should I pitch the Lager wort? At 20-25ish to kick the yeast off again, or 10-15ish to immediately begin lagering?

3. How does this technique sound?
*Re-hydrate Lager yeast using pre-boild water cooled to around 30 degrees
*Prepare FWK as usual, put into fermenter and top up to 20L with cold water
*Pitch yeast at around 22 degrees
*Put fermenter into room temp fridge, then switch fridge on to highest temp. setting (which will hopefully cool the wort over the next 6-8 hours)
*Allow to ferment at 10-12 degrees for 10-14 days
*After that, allow a 3 day diacetyl rest (Ie. turn fridge off and get wort back up to 18-20 degrees for a few days)
*Rack to secondary and leave in room temp fridge for a day or 2 (I figured here that the movement of racking might get the yeast going again for a day or 2)
*Crank fridge right down to maximum coldness (1 or 2 degrees) and leave for .....? How long? A month? 2?

Hows my technique looking? Have I missed anything?

 

[Barge]

Off the top of my head I remember reading somewhere (i'll try to find it) that you need to harvest lager yeast before the diacetyl rest to get 'cleaner' yeast. Dunno if i am remembering this correctly, or even if it is 'homebrew wisdom' that has no scientific basis.

If this is the case, you could runoff some of the slurry before the diacetyl and put it into a bottle with an airlock in a rubber stopper. Keep it in the fridge until you rack the primary, clean the fermenter and put it straight in.

Ideally, lager yeasts should be pitched into the wort from a starter of at around 10% (again from memory, please correct me if i'm wrong). So a 25L batch should have a 2.5L starter. The rationale here is that the more yeast cells the quicker fermentation starts, the more it attenuates and the cleaner the flavours as less esters are produced.

Again, I've brewed lagers that have fermented at 20C and been cold conditioned in the bottle. It took a few months for the flavours to come together but when you have plenty of fridge space and bottles, who cares!

 

[jkeysers]

Gday Barge.
Ah, I forgot about the yeast amount issues. When using satchels, I should probly be using 2 first up shouldn't I?!?

As for the rest of what you said, makes sense. Re-using the yeast after its eaten the diacetyl might not be wise, so I might have to run some off before like you said. Hmmm. If I go and remove a heap of the yeast through the tap to keep for my next brew, will there be enough left to clean up the diacetyl?

 

[Zwickel]

gday mates,
so far Im doing mainly lager or pilsener beers.
Let me just show you de differnce to a top fermenting beer.

For pilsener or lager beers you should have much more yeast cells than for ales.
Im counting around 0,8 -1% of the total amount of wort stiff yeast.

For example, thats the yeast Ive used for my recent batch, batch size 60l:

Very important is the pitching temp. If you want to get a great Pilsener or Lager, then never pitch the yeast at temps higher than 10C.
If you do so, youll never need a diacetyl rest.
Diacetyl is a stuff that produces an off flavor like scotch buttery, so its recommended not to get it in the beer at the first time, rather than removing it afterwards.

Also producing a yeast starter not at higher temps than 10C.

Harvesting the yeast is not a probleme, not at all.
Just take the slurry after racking the beer, but keep it cool all the time.

Cheers

P.S. John Palmer describes the treatment very well:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-4.html

Cheers

 

[jkeysers]

Cheers Zwickel.
Maybe I will give it a go straight from the cooler temps. That way I can put a 2nd wort straight on top of the yeast cake by the sounds of it. Suits me! Saves me cleaning the primary fermenter in between brews.

The only thing is, JPs and your description for pitching the initial batch of yeast describe it as liquid yeast. If I wanted to use a dried yeast, how many satchels would I use? 2? 3?

And by pitching extra satchels, do I have to "grow" more yeast at warmer temperatures over a couple of days like Palmer describes? Or can I just pitch it at 12 degrees?

On second thought, both methods have pros and cons. Not sure which to take. It's my cheapness (not wanting to buy another lager yeast for my 2nd brew) vs my laziness (the non diacteyl rest method sounds like more work). haha.

 

[Aussie Claret]

For dried lager yeasts pitch two packs at the fermenting temperature 10c.
You should have some action within 24hrs.
Cheers
AC

 

[DJR]

Just pitch 2 rehydrated sachets at 12C, wait till about 1020, get it out of the fridge for a couple of days to clear the diacetyl, then rack it and lager it as close to -1C as you can get for at least 2-3 weeks.

Any off-flavours will stick out like a sore thumb with a lager style so get the freshest extract and hops you can, sanitise and clean everything religiously, etc

And don't dry hop a lager at all! (until you get more experience with brewing - drinking grass is not fun)

If you don't want to go the full lager option but want something lager-ish from an ale yeast, try one of the hybrid yeasts - US05/56, S33, WLP029 Kolsch/WY1007 German/WY2565 Kolsch and ferment at about 15-16C

 

[jkeysers]

Thanks AC and DJR
Do I still need to re-hydrate the yeast in a glass of pre-boiled 30 degree water, or is this just for the other method?

Or should re-hydrate in say 12-15 degree water?

This Lager thing is hard work and I haven't even started yet!

 

[razz]

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
Very handy calculator for pitching yeast, I've used it a few times now with good success.

 

[floppinab]

And don't dry hop a lager at all!

Why is that???

 

[DJR]

Why is that???

Usually ends up being crap! I'm not saying you should absolutely never do it but as a young, inexperienced brewer i thought it would be a good idea - not happy with drinking the fresh grass that resulted

 

[DJR]

Rehydrate in warm water, just like the Fermentis instructions/datasheet says

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/EN/pdf/SaflagerS-189.pdf

 

[jkeysers]

Razz- Great calculator. Will be bookmarking that one. Cheers.

DJR- Advice take on board. Cheers!

Once my current brews have finished CCing, will keg them, clean the fermenters out and start up a lager or 2 using the no diacetyl rest method!
:chug:

 

[Dr Gonzo]

I agree with Zwickel.
I've never pitched a lager above 8C, never let it go above 12C,
I've never done a diacetyl rest, and i've never had problems with diacetyl.

 

[floppinab]

Usually ends up being crap! I'm not saying you should absolutely never do it but as a young, inexperienced brewer i thought it would be a good idea - not happy with drinking the fresh grass that resulted

I guess you were referring to lagers compared to ales, yes?? If so what would be the difference?

 

[facter]

im doing my first rest atm .. i took it out of the fridge and bought it to room temp at around 1022 or so on saturday, and that was four days ago, and its still bubbling .. is this fairly normal ? everywhere ive read says 24-48 hours ... at 1022 it wont really affect the flavour at all with the higher temp will it?most of that is bypassed already?

 

[matti]

Rehydrate if you are using a dry lager yeast.
Allow the boiled water to cool down to below 20 and then sprinke the
yeast in the sterile cup.

Try to bring the wort down to same temperature before you pitch the yeast.
2 packets is better and if possible aerate the wort.
The quicker you get the cell count up to the cleaner ferment you are going to get.

Follow the steps you first mentioned and lager for a month at least.
Ones you have it in second we can start to discuss carbonation temperature.

Mean while be paranoid about sanitation. The lager yeast does not like altered conditions and will give away all sort of off flavours.
A diacetyl rest for 2 day at 20 is good.
If you are confident of you methods and like to give the beer a little hint of butter scotch you can rest it at 16 degrees for a couple of days.

No ignore that last bit and keep it simple if it is you first lager.

 

[matti]

Facter.
Rack it and bring slowly back down over next 3-4 days.
After a week bring to as cold as possible. S.G should be very close to what is expected by then

 

[DJR]

I guess you were referring to lagers compared to ales, yes?? If so what would be the difference?

The types of hops... for lagers i'd be using Hallertau, Hersbrucker, Saaz, Saphir,etc. All have a distinct taste of grass when using for a dry hop. I've dry hopped once using Saaz which was OK but needed a while to settle, i'd avoid it until you have everything else in your process sorted really. If you are going AG or full boil FWH'ing and using lots of flameout hops is more authentic

 

[jkeysers]

If you are confident of you methods and like to give the beer a little hint of butter scotch you can rest it at 16 degrees for a couple of days.

No ignore that last bit and keep it simple if it is you first lager.

I was already considering that, but yeah, maybe doing it by the book is best first up.