About To Try A Lager For The First Time

[floppinab]

The types of hops... for lagers i'd be using Hallertau, Hersbrucker, Saaz, Saphir,etc. All have a distinct taste of grass when using for a dry hop. I've dry hopped once using Saaz which was OK but needed a while to settle, i'd avoid it until you have everything else in your process sorted really. If you are going AG or full boil FWH'ing and using lots of flameout hops is more authentic

Got it, thanks, and you just saved me big time as I was going to dry hop a Munich style finishing it's diacetyl today, I'll save it for the ale in the other fermenter.

 

[blackbock]

Just playing devil's advocate here...

Some of us would say that the diacetyl rest should be carried out at much lower temps also, ie 15 or 16C.
Unless you have a good reason to go higher, I don't believe you will get as good a result at 18 or 20.

Good lagers take a long time, and rushing the process only makes for an inferior beer.

A long, cold secondary is what really makes for a top lager, probably even more important than actual 'lagering'. Of course it also depends a lot on the yeast strain.

There goes my 2c...

 

[Zwickel]

Just playing devil's advocate here...

me too

Some of us would say that the diacetyl rest should be carried out at much lower temps also, ie 15 or 16C.
Unless you have a good reason to go higher, I don't believe you will get as good a result at 18 or 20.

Id say, choosing a methode not to need any diacetyl rest is the way to a great Lager or Pilsener.
I f you dont get that dirt in your beer at first, you dont need to remove it later.
Anyway there is no guarantee, youre able to remove that diacetyl completely.
As John Palmer writes, a certain amount of diacetyl may be good in some ales, but its an off flavor in Lagers.

Good lagers take a long time, and rushing the process only makes for an inferior beer.

I agree

A long, cold secondary is what really makes for a top lager, probably even more important than actual 'lagering'. Of course it also depends a lot on the yeast strain.

hmmm... even a long cold lagering cant remove the crap you got in the beer at the first time. Im not only thinking about diacetyl, there are many other unwanted stuffs like ester youll get at too warm fermenting temps, even if you cool down a little later.

Id say, if your equipment doesnt allow you to treaten the yeast the right way for a Lager beer, leave it and do an Ale.

So, now you may throw stones after me

 

[blackbock]

Id say, choosing a methode not to need any diacetyl rest is the way to a great Lager or Pilsener.
I f you dont get that dirt in your beer at first, you dont need to remove it later.
Anyway there is no guarantee, youre able to remove that diacetyl completely.

Gotta love that Denglisch! I'm impressed if you've discovered the path to totally diacetyl- and esterfree lagers.

 

[Zwickel]

sorry for my poor english; I havent discovered the path to totally diacetyl- and esterfree lagers, there are many steps to it, its just my 2cnt.

 

[blackbock]

That wasn't a criticism Zwickel, I just love the way that things sometimes translate. I'm sure your beers are very nice indeed!

 

[Zwickel]

That wasn't a criticism Zwickel, I just love the way that things sometimes translate. I'm sure your beers are very nice indeed!

No problem Blackbock, I only wanna help to make a great lager beer
It took me many test brews til I got my first satisfying Pilsener.
My first attempts were all unsatisfactory to me, always had a strange taste in it.
Later when I completed my equipment and started rigorous cooling the yeast and its starters and pitching at fermenting temps, I was satisfied with the beers.

All of us want to make great beers, Im just showing my way

Cheers :beer:

 

[Barge]

I've never done a diacetyl rest, and i've never had problems with diacetyl.

This sounds fair enough to me as well. I've done a few batches of a very similar lager recipe but I can't temp control the ferment. I brew it in winter (about to do it next month) in Brisbane, which is as high as 20C. Comes out fine but I definately have to CC for ages for the flavours to come good. I only say this because I think a lot of people are put off by lagers where, as long as you can CC (and wait long enough to be able to drink it), IMHO they aren't as daunting as people think.

Cheers

 

[Hogan]

Later when I completed my equipment and started rigorous cooling the yeast and its starters and pitching at fermenting temps, I was satisfied with the beers.

All of us want to make great beers, Im just showing my way

Zwickel.

It is interesting to note that some brewers are pitching their yeast to Lagers/Pilsners at the ferment temps. ie 10-12c. I would think that such a low temp would be one heck of a shock to the yeast and it would take a long time to kick off.

My research when commencing to brew lagers was (from Whitelabs) to rehydrate dry yeast at 20c (+ or - 3c) pitch at 20c - wait for signs of activity and then lower to desired ferment temp of 10-12c. White says that you have some 8 hours to bring the temp down before any nasty tastes can start to inhabit the wort due to the higher pitch temp.

I certainly would like to try pitching at the ferment temp but in the past have been concerned with the 'shock' effect and that the lag time would be too lengthy.

I use two packs of dry yeast and rehydrate that in a portion of the wort.

We might all benefit to hear from others regarding their experiences with cold pitching.


Cheers, Hoges.

 

[matti]

I am with hogan on this regarding dry yeast AND I rest my beer as well @16 DEGREES .

ADD ON.
Middle of the road.
Pitch at 20 degrees and aerate to buggery
rest at 18 and lager for 4 weeks

 

[Zwickel]

I certainly would like to try pitching at the ferment temp but in the past have been concerned with the 'shock' effect and that the lag time would be too lengthy.

A shock only can happen if the yeast is at a different temp to the wort.
As I wrote: "I started rigorous cooling the yeast and its starters", that means at no time the yeast is at a higher temp than the wort.
After pitching the yeast it will take around 4 hours to notice first fermenting signs, there is no delay at all.

Id recommend, if you start a strain from Agar-Agar at ambient temp, after an initial time of one or two days, lower the temp of the starter slowly as you increase the amount of wort to feed the yeast.
In the end, right before you pitch, the yeast should be at the same temp as the wort.

Cheers

 

[Stuster]

Another option for the yeast is to cold pitch it. Strangely going from cold to warm doesn't shock the yeast. You can make your starter, put it in the fridge for a day or two to drop out the yeast. Then when you want to use it, decant the liquid above the yeast and just pitch the yeast straight from the yeast. More information on cold pitching here.

 

[Hogan]

Another option for the yeast is to cold pitch it. Strangely going from cold to warm doesn't shock the yeast. You can make your starter, put it in the fridge for a day or two to drop out the yeast. Then when you want to use it, decant the liquid above the yeast and just pitch the yeast straight from the yeast. More information on cold pitching here.

Interesting article there Stuster.

So if I am using a dry yeast (double pack) for a lager I can cool it in the fridge to 5c. rehydrate it in wort that has been cooled to around 9c. - pitch - and when it kicks off the heating action of the fermentation will bring it up to around 12c.

Sorry if this is a bit of hyjack on the original post but I think the issue goes to the heart of making a good lager.

Cheers, Hoges.

 

[warrenlw63]

Interesting thread. I just pitched a lager this afternoon. I always pitch at or a couple of degrees lower than ferment temp and let it warm up a little. Note: I always make sure the starter and main wort are around the same temps. Haven't had a lager with diacetyl yet.

Lager was pitched with an actively fermenting 5 litre starter for a 45 litre batch. Both @ 9 degrees.

Edit: Yeast was Wyeast 2633 Octoberfest

Warren -

 

[Stuster]

Hmm, that sounds right but I'm not sure how it works with dry yeast. The article (and my experience with using cold pitching) is with starters or slurry. I'm not sure why what you describe wouldn't work though. :unsure:

 

[Ross]

Hmm, that sounds right but I'm not sure how it works with dry yeast. The article (and my experience with using cold pitching) is with starters or slurry. I'm not sure why what you describe wouldn't work though. :unsure:

I do it with dried yeast all the time.

My fermenters are filled & put in the cold room overnight, where they chill to approx 7c. The next day I put them into the fermenting fridge, set at 11c & pitch my dried yeast straight out of the cold room onto the wort.
Once the final gravity reaches 1020, I warm to 18c for 3 days, then crash chill, filter & keg.
My lagers are extremely clean & drink great after just 2 weeks kegging.

cheers Ross

 

[KoNG]

Sorry Ross,
Are you rehydrating or just sprinkling the dry yeast...?
i'm due to do the same and tossing up if to rehydrate or not... dont really see the need, i dont bother with ales... so..?!?!

 

[Ross]

Sorry Ross,
Are you rehydrating or just sprinkling the dry yeast...?
i'm due to do the same and tossing up if to rehydrate or not... dont really see the need, i dont bother with ales... so..?!?!

Yep, sprinkled on dry, no stirring, no aeration - But I do use a double satchet of yeast.

Cheers Ross

 

[KoNG]

yeh, i am planning to use 2 sachets, so no problem there. I'll just keep the yeast in the fridge before pitching....

sorry for any OT.. OP

 

[warrenlw63]

yeh, i am planning to use 2 sachets, so no problem there. I'll just keep the yeast in the fridge before pitching....

sorry for any OT.. OP

Lager Schmager.

Warren -